Anyone non-religious here? Please be nice!
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Byrant made me remember this.
The New Testament books were not written with chapter and verse numbers. Those were added over a thousand years later. First by a monk named Sanit Pagnini in the fifteenth century and then other people adopted other ways to number the different sections of the New Testament.
We would never take a letter from a friend or a book and point to one sentence and say, "See, this is what the entire book or letter is about." Yet that is exactly what some people do with the Bible.
The New Testament books were not written with chapter and verse numbers. Those were added over a thousand years later. First by a monk named Sanit Pagnini in the fifteenth century and then other people adopted other ways to number the different sections of the New Testament.
We would never take a letter from a friend or a book and point to one sentence and say, "See, this is what the entire book or letter is about." Yet that is exactly what some people do with the Bible.
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What I find more interesting than what is in the bible is what was LEFT OUT of the bible.
From the Infant Gospel of Thomas...
"his little child Jesus when he was five years old was playing at the ford of a brook: and he gathered together the waters that flowed there into pools, and made them straightway clean, and commanded them by his word alone. 2 And having made soft clay, he fashioned thereof twelve sparrows. And it was the Sabbath when he did these things (or made them). And there were also many other little children playing with him.
3 And a certain Jew when he saw what Jesus did, playing upon the Sabbath day, departed straightway and told his father Joseph: Lo, thy child is at the brook, and he hath taken clay and fashioned twelve little birds, and hath polluted the Sabbath day. 4 And Joseph came to the place and saw: and cried out to him, saying: Wherefore doest thou these things on the Sabbath, which it is not lawful to do? But Jesus clapped his hands together and cried out to the sparrows and said to them: Go! and the sparrows took their flight and went away chirping. 5 And when the Jews saw it they were amazed, and departed and told their chief men that which they had seen Jesus do.
III. 1 But the son of Annas the scribe was standing there with Joseph; and he took a branch of a willow and dispersed the waters which Jesus had gathered together. 2 And when Jesus saw what was done, he was wroth and said unto him: O evil, ungodly, and foolish one, what hurt did the pools and the waters do thee? behold, now also thou shalt be withered like a tree, and shalt not bear leaves, neither root, nor fruit. 3 And straightway that lad withered up wholly, but Jesus departed and went unto Joseph's house. But the parents of him that was withered took him up, bewailing his youth, and brought him to Joseph, and accused him 'for that thou hast such a child which doeth such deeds.'
IV. 1 After that again he went through the village, and a child ran and dashed against his shoulder. And Jesus was provoked and said unto him: Thou shalt not finish thy course (lit. go all thy way). And immediately he fell down and died. But certain when they saw what was done said: Whence was this young child born, for that every word of his is an accomplished work? And the parents of him that was dead came unto Joseph, and blamed him, saying: Thou that hast such a child canst not dwell with us in the village: or do thou teach him to bless and not to curse: for he slayeth our children.
V. 1 And Joseph called the young child apart and admonished him, saying: Wherefore doest thou such things, that these suffer and hate us and persecute us? But Jesus said: I know that these thy words are not thine: nevertheless for thy sake I will hold my peace: but they shall bear their punishment. And straightway they that accused him were smitten with blindness. 2 And they that saw it were sore afraid and perplexed, and said concerning him that every word which he spake whether it were good or bad, was a deed, and became a marvel. And when they (he ?) saw that Jesus had so done, Joseph arose and took hold upon his ear and wrung it sore. 3 And the young child was wroth and said unto him: It sufficeth thee (or them) to seek and not to find, and verily thou hast done unwisely: knowest thou not that I am thine? vex me not."
http://www.gnosis.org/library/inftoma.htm
From the Infant Gospel of Thomas...
"his little child Jesus when he was five years old was playing at the ford of a brook: and he gathered together the waters that flowed there into pools, and made them straightway clean, and commanded them by his word alone. 2 And having made soft clay, he fashioned thereof twelve sparrows. And it was the Sabbath when he did these things (or made them). And there were also many other little children playing with him.
3 And a certain Jew when he saw what Jesus did, playing upon the Sabbath day, departed straightway and told his father Joseph: Lo, thy child is at the brook, and he hath taken clay and fashioned twelve little birds, and hath polluted the Sabbath day. 4 And Joseph came to the place and saw: and cried out to him, saying: Wherefore doest thou these things on the Sabbath, which it is not lawful to do? But Jesus clapped his hands together and cried out to the sparrows and said to them: Go! and the sparrows took their flight and went away chirping. 5 And when the Jews saw it they were amazed, and departed and told their chief men that which they had seen Jesus do.
III. 1 But the son of Annas the scribe was standing there with Joseph; and he took a branch of a willow and dispersed the waters which Jesus had gathered together. 2 And when Jesus saw what was done, he was wroth and said unto him: O evil, ungodly, and foolish one, what hurt did the pools and the waters do thee? behold, now also thou shalt be withered like a tree, and shalt not bear leaves, neither root, nor fruit. 3 And straightway that lad withered up wholly, but Jesus departed and went unto Joseph's house. But the parents of him that was withered took him up, bewailing his youth, and brought him to Joseph, and accused him 'for that thou hast such a child which doeth such deeds.'
IV. 1 After that again he went through the village, and a child ran and dashed against his shoulder. And Jesus was provoked and said unto him: Thou shalt not finish thy course (lit. go all thy way). And immediately he fell down and died. But certain when they saw what was done said: Whence was this young child born, for that every word of his is an accomplished work? And the parents of him that was dead came unto Joseph, and blamed him, saying: Thou that hast such a child canst not dwell with us in the village: or do thou teach him to bless and not to curse: for he slayeth our children.
V. 1 And Joseph called the young child apart and admonished him, saying: Wherefore doest thou such things, that these suffer and hate us and persecute us? But Jesus said: I know that these thy words are not thine: nevertheless for thy sake I will hold my peace: but they shall bear their punishment. And straightway they that accused him were smitten with blindness. 2 And they that saw it were sore afraid and perplexed, and said concerning him that every word which he spake whether it were good or bad, was a deed, and became a marvel. And when they (he ?) saw that Jesus had so done, Joseph arose and took hold upon his ear and wrung it sore. 3 And the young child was wroth and said unto him: It sufficeth thee (or them) to seek and not to find, and verily thou hast done unwisely: knowest thou not that I am thine? vex me not."
http://www.gnosis.org/library/inftoma.htm
Quote:
In first grade my mother decided to explain to me why my uncle had a "roommate" instead of a wife. She showed me a picture of a gay pride parade in the paper and basically let me ask the questions . . . at some point I asked why they needed to have a parade. She told me a lot of people didn't like that they were born a certain way, and so they had parades and things to try to let people know they were out there and just wanted to be heard like everyone else. When I asked her why people didn't like who they loved, she just said she didn't know, that people could just be mean sometimes. One thing I didn't ask about was the big picture of a sign that said, "God Hates Fags," but that picture burned into my memory. That didn't start me towards disbelieving in God, though. In fact, I decided that the guy with a sign had mistaken God with the devil. By the second grade I had quit believing in the Devil and Heck, at least in the traditional sense, because I had decided if God could do anything and was good, he would have found a way to get the devil to be good and be happy about it. Of course, a good God wouldn't allow a place like Heck to exist for any reason, so there was no way that had ever come into existence (I had never heard of the "How can an infinite punishment be just for a finite crime?" argument before, so I didn't know how to word why I couldn't believe in Heck, but it does some up my thought process at the time. Heck just seemed like a major overreaction) . Instead, I thought maybe bad people kept getting reincarnated until they did good, and then they got into heaven.
In the fourth grade, I decided to read the Bible. I read the New Testament a few times, actually, because that was the part that people told me mattered. After that, that was it. Grimm's Fairy Tales seemed far more believable, frankly, and far less disgustingly violent, even with Cinderella's stepsisters chopping up their own feet to fit into the shoe. I definitely couldn't see that I was "saved" simply because one man had died the same way Romans had killed hundreds of other people during those times. Oh, gosh, there were billions of thoughts whirling through my head as I read the Bible, but the moment of divine inspiration and understanding that so many people claim to get from doing so never came. Or actually, it did, but in the form of the relief that came with the realization that the christian god couldn't be real, that there wasn't some creepy presence watching my every move for some sign of sin, and that I was free to be a good person without the fear.
Of course, it wasn't until I was older that I managed to come up with more elegant reasons for my disbelief. I'm not sure I'd assign either event more credit for being the catalyst for my disbelief. The story in the newspaper was the reason I started questioning the existence of Heck and all that, so I think it opened up the doors for doubt in religion. Reading the bible sent me towards exploring other faiths to ultimately settle on atheism until someone could present evidence to show otherwise, so I think both are pretty equal. I've gotten pretty hesitant to add the account of the newspaper story when people ask for details into how I came to atheism, though, ever since someone . . . who I honestly thought should know better . . . told me that that was proof of the corrosive power of homosexuality on our young people.
Oh, and just as added information, me being atheist does not mean I'm not open to the idea that there might be a god, many gods, a force, or otherwise out there. It just means I am without theism, because, at present, I have not seen or heard anything to convince me otherwise. It may very well be that we simply haven't developed the tool yet that would show us there is a definite intelligent creator/s/force/aliens/god-like earthworms. Understanding that I may not have all the information does not make me an agnostic, though, because I am still, effectively, without theism. I suppose it could make me an agnostic atheist, but I don't see the point in that added labeling. I'm also an agnostic omnivore, because I'm not a dietary expert and I'm open to the idea that someone may prove conclusively that a vegetarian lifestyle is the best way to go, but people would be right to think it's weird that I'd feel the need to add the word "agnostic" to the omnivore label, and I feel the same way about religious beliefs, or lack thereof. I figure most people are either agnostic religious, agnostic non-religious, agnostic spiritual, or agnostic atheist, or anything else you can think of, but I don't think "agnostic" is really a label that can stand on its own, because everybody is that by default unless they've somehow become omniscient. I don't know if that makes sense to anybody, but that's my reasoning.
In first grade my mother decided to explain to me why my uncle had a "roommate" instead of a wife. She showed me a picture of a gay pride parade in the paper and basically let me ask the questions . . . at some point I asked why they needed to have a parade. She told me a lot of people didn't like that they were born a certain way, and so they had parades and things to try to let people know they were out there and just wanted to be heard like everyone else. When I asked her why people didn't like who they loved, she just said she didn't know, that people could just be mean sometimes. One thing I didn't ask about was the big picture of a sign that said, "God Hates Fags," but that picture burned into my memory. That didn't start me towards disbelieving in God, though. In fact, I decided that the guy with a sign had mistaken God with the devil. By the second grade I had quit believing in the Devil and Heck, at least in the traditional sense, because I had decided if God could do anything and was good, he would have found a way to get the devil to be good and be happy about it. Of course, a good God wouldn't allow a place like Heck to exist for any reason, so there was no way that had ever come into existence (I had never heard of the "How can an infinite punishment be just for a finite crime?" argument before, so I didn't know how to word why I couldn't believe in Heck, but it does some up my thought process at the time. Heck just seemed like a major overreaction) . Instead, I thought maybe bad people kept getting reincarnated until they did good, and then they got into heaven.
In the fourth grade, I decided to read the Bible. I read the New Testament a few times, actually, because that was the part that people told me mattered. After that, that was it. Grimm's Fairy Tales seemed far more believable, frankly, and far less disgustingly violent, even with Cinderella's stepsisters chopping up their own feet to fit into the shoe. I definitely couldn't see that I was "saved" simply because one man had died the same way Romans had killed hundreds of other people during those times. Oh, gosh, there were billions of thoughts whirling through my head as I read the Bible, but the moment of divine inspiration and understanding that so many people claim to get from doing so never came. Or actually, it did, but in the form of the relief that came with the realization that the christian god couldn't be real, that there wasn't some creepy presence watching my every move for some sign of sin, and that I was free to be a good person without the fear.
Of course, it wasn't until I was older that I managed to come up with more elegant reasons for my disbelief. I'm not sure I'd assign either event more credit for being the catalyst for my disbelief. The story in the newspaper was the reason I started questioning the existence of Heck and all that, so I think it opened up the doors for doubt in religion. Reading the bible sent me towards exploring other faiths to ultimately settle on atheism until someone could present evidence to show otherwise, so I think both are pretty equal. I've gotten pretty hesitant to add the account of the newspaper story when people ask for details into how I came to atheism, though, ever since someone . . . who I honestly thought should know better . . . told me that that was proof of the corrosive power of homosexuality on our young people.
Oh, and just as added information, me being atheist does not mean I'm not open to the idea that there might be a god, many gods, a force, or otherwise out there. It just means I am without theism, because, at present, I have not seen or heard anything to convince me otherwise. It may very well be that we simply haven't developed the tool yet that would show us there is a definite intelligent creator/s/force/aliens/god-like earthworms. Understanding that I may not have all the information does not make me an agnostic, though, because I am still, effectively, without theism. I suppose it could make me an agnostic atheist, but I don't see the point in that added labeling. I'm also an agnostic omnivore, because I'm not a dietary expert and I'm open to the idea that someone may prove conclusively that a vegetarian lifestyle is the best way to go, but people would be right to think it's weird that I'd feel the need to add the word "agnostic" to the omnivore label, and I feel the same way about religious beliefs, or lack thereof. I figure most people are either agnostic religious, agnostic non-religious, agnostic spiritual, or agnostic atheist, or anything else you can think of, but I don't think "agnostic" is really a label that can stand on its own, because everybody is that by default unless they've somehow become omniscient. I don't know if that makes sense to anybody, but that's my reasoning.
I must say I love this post as well. I really thought I was the only one of my kind on here before, however I am pleasantly surprised to find out that this is not so. I see the wife has already chimed in earlier and if I was not feeling ill, would likely read through the whole thread and find out more about the thoughts of others. It is interesting to see that many other people's views match my own from the little bit I have read.
My father taught me to think critically and I have done so as long as I can remember. I have always questioned everything I was told, sometimes it came back to bite him, and the best question of all, and one that causes many problems for religion, is why? I have never been satisfied with just because or God did it etc, I wanted a more complete answer and that is something no religion can do for me. I feel that everything in the universe can be understood, it may just take some time. We are continually unraveling the mysteries of the universe, I just wish I could live to see them all solved. Think of all the things that we once thought were magical, but now we understand. We used to think flies spontaneously generated from meat, we did not understand cells, genetics or all the amazing processes that take place on our beautiful little rock. I feel that religion was invented to shed light on these things that we did not understand and for me it serves no purpose. Through the scientific process we can answer question and formulate our ideas so that we can understand things that we could not before. Science is set up in a way so that it continually tries to disprove itself. We formulate a hypothesis, test it, retest it, have others test it, and if it still holds up then it maybe true. However religion requires faith, if you try to test it you cannot and will fail. For me that is the biggest sticking point I have with religion is faith.
Please forgive me if I am rambling, I had only the wife to share my views with before this point, and I have so much to say and only so much room. Again I am truly sorry if I upset someone, these are my views and mine alone. Take from them what you like if anything at all, I was only trying to tell other similar minded individuals how I feel on the current topic. I do my best to respect others views and hope that you can show me the same courtesy.
My father taught me to think critically and I have done so as long as I can remember. I have always questioned everything I was told, sometimes it came back to bite him, and the best question of all, and one that causes many problems for religion, is why? I have never been satisfied with just because or God did it etc, I wanted a more complete answer and that is something no religion can do for me. I feel that everything in the universe can be understood, it may just take some time. We are continually unraveling the mysteries of the universe, I just wish I could live to see them all solved. Think of all the things that we once thought were magical, but now we understand. We used to think flies spontaneously generated from meat, we did not understand cells, genetics or all the amazing processes that take place on our beautiful little rock. I feel that religion was invented to shed light on these things that we did not understand and for me it serves no purpose. Through the scientific process we can answer question and formulate our ideas so that we can understand things that we could not before. Science is set up in a way so that it continually tries to disprove itself. We formulate a hypothesis, test it, retest it, have others test it, and if it still holds up then it maybe true. However religion requires faith, if you try to test it you cannot and will fail. For me that is the biggest sticking point I have with religion is faith.
Please forgive me if I am rambling, I had only the wife to share my views with before this point, and I have so much to say and only so much room. Again I am truly sorry if I upset someone, these are my views and mine alone. Take from them what you like if anything at all, I was only trying to tell other similar minded individuals how I feel on the current topic. I do my best to respect others views and hope that you can show me the same courtesy.
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Okay, I just wanted to add that now I hate this thread. I came home, wanted to take a nap since I have been feeling ill since Thursday. However, I started reading this post, and now it is an hour and a half later and I am going to have to take care of the animals and make dinner, so long nap and so long feeling better I guess. So thanks everyone for making such and interesting thread and letting me know I am not the only atheist out there.
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Popular consensus is that Thomas was certifiably whacked.
Try reading the whole gospel of Thomas and you may see why people feel that way.
Quote:
I remember it very clearly. I was 12 and in Literature class. We were studying Greek Mythology, my classmates were chuckling over some of the beliefs we were studying. It dawned on me that the people in that time believed their ancient mythology as strongly as people now believe in their religions. What makes us so special in comparison? Not much, just time and some wars. It was right then that all religious dogma became mythology to me.
I remember it very clearly. I was 12 and in Literature class. We were studying Greek Mythology, my classmates were chuckling over some of the beliefs we were studying. It dawned on me that the people in that time believed their ancient mythology as strongly as people now believe in their religions. What makes us so special in comparison? Not much, just time and some wars. It was right then that all religious dogma became mythology to me.
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