Anyone non-religious here? Please be nice!

[CityChicker]

I have to say that I have noticed that too on occasion, Fowltemptress. The few people that I have known that were raised non-theist are a little more indifferent. Many of the very outspoken Atheists I have known though have come to it through religion, sometimes very intense religion. I can't tell you the number of times I have heard the stories of people growing up in a very religious household and coming to Atheism through intense Bible study (and this probably happens in other religions as well). That has certainly been my path as well, although I don't identify as Atheist per se. Obviously, coming from this background makes religious discussions more personal to people and perhaps sets the tone more so than with people that were not raised with religion.

As far as the first part of your post, I don't think that children necessarily have to be taught to be moral. I think humans are innately moral creatures. Our actions are reinforced through numerous methods other than religion or through steering of our parents. I think the feeling of compassion for others is likely in our nature as humans (if not as living creatures period).

 

[CityChicker]

Thank you, SunnyDawn. I will say that, in general, my MIL is wonderful. She has some very bizarre thoughts on religion and politics, in my opinion, but she is really the type of person that would literally give you the shirt off her back. She has helped us beyond belief. Her thoughts on religion and God though do seem very irrational to me. She also, like so many people that are ultra-fundamentalist, will not sway even the slightest bit in her thoughts on religion. In doing this, I feel like she suspends all reality (not to mention, she can be extraordinarily judgmental and condescending, she has told me repeatedly that I will be in hell, not with her and my DH in Heaven). Hard to believe that I still adore her, but I do.

In the prayer conversation, I could not even get her to acknowledge that people die! I mean for Heaven's sake, everyone dies! This has come up in my life because she believes that my health problems have been in large part because I am not a good enough Christian. Our prayer conversation switched to health issues and death and dying and her point was that God heals people when they are sick (probably an indirect slap at me to put me in my place, LOL). I was like, well- can you at least admit that every living person eventually passes away in the physical sense? Can you at least say that God does not answer prayers about death and keeps people alive forever (again, in the physical sense)? She could not do it!

Very few things in this world cause people to suspend all reality like this. It reminds me of the thread where the girl was leaving her ultra-religious husband (and I'm not sure of the protocol of whether it is okay to mention that, if not, moderators please remove this part, I won't be offended). Anyway, he could not even say that he would not kill his own children! To me, that is just so beyond irrational. It defies all reason that people will say things like that because of religion.

 

[debilorrah]

Quote:
I was!!! I was taught the difference between right and wrong. Such as lying, stealing, hurting people on purpose, etc. My mom taught us that they are things a person just shouldn't do.

 

[fowltemptress]

CityChicker: I agree that morals are pretty much innate, it makes sense from evolution's standpoint, and the morals that aren't innate are more likely to just be cultural or societal "norms" that people confuse with morality, such as modes of dress. I suppose that question arises because so many people do seem to think it would be harder to teach children morality without religion. I am childfree, but I've often felt, if I did have children, that I'd have to work twice as hard making sure they did grow to be moral people simply because they would be brought up in a secular household and the people in my community would be expecting demon-spawn from me.

I do think fairy tales are filled to the brim with moral lessons, though, if people want to scare their children into being good without using the bible. Those things are terrifying, especially the ones involving people disrespecting their elders.

 

[fowltemptress]

debiraymond: So you were brought up secular and found god later? Or were you brought up non-religious, without an emphasis on church or anything? Sorry if you've explained that already and I've forgotten. If I may, your mother's teachings sure shines through in your posts.

I'm not sure I've seen one by you that wasn't kind, polite, or understanding, even on the occasions where I've thought, "Oh, surely people will lose their temper now."

 

[tonini3059]

My family did not practice religion. We never went to church or were baptized.( I think my mom and dad attended church when they were young) My mom always said that she believed in god, but did not feel like she needed to go to church to prove it. I was never taught anything or religion. When I was in grade school I went to bible school with one of my friends for a week in the summer and that was the extent of my church going. My mom always joked that we only went to church for weddings and funerals. We were taught what was right and wrong / good or bad, but God was never a part of it. It was never said that you better be good and do good things because you will go to Hell or not go to Heaven. It was taught that you treat people the way you want to be treated, or If you don't help others you will not receive help when needed.
As I got older and learned more of religion here and there I did not understand it. I did not understand how nothing was ever proven to be correct, yet people to fight to the death to claim they were right. I could not see how God could have created every being of life. Even more so as I learned the evils of people I could not see 'god's plan" in innocent victims, especially children who were "innocent". I think the thing that pushed me away for religion even more were people who felt they were better than me because they went to church, yet they were just awful people be little me for not being a church goer. I didn't see how just because they went to church and acted like complete J/A's that if there were a heaven they would get in before me, when I clearly have better moral values than they do.

 

[KDbeads]

Thank you Reinbeau.


As for the question someone presented on prayer. Prayer is a very powerful thing in my mind but not for a religious reason. It's a good karma/positive thinking type thing. The power of positive thinking has been documented by many studies. When someone says they will pray for me I genuinely thank them because they think enough of me to include me in their positive thinking. When asked to pray for others I simply say yes, they will be in my thoughts. Prayer for most is a stress release mechanism, it eases the mind of constant worry because the individual is giving over their perceived stresses to their maker/god freeing them from the burden. It helps people feel better about their lives and that of others knowing that god is going to take care of them and lead them to the right path. I for one am glad people do pray.
While I don't pray, per say, I do meditate on my troubles and that of others, it helps me release that tension, helps me feel more positive to the things around me. Helps me clear my mind so that I can see my path more clearly.

 

[CityChicker]

I think those are the positive examples of prayer, KDBeads, and I actually think that prayer can be a very good thing for those reasons. I think it can also be wonderful even as a conversation with God or as a form of meditation. You must admit though that a lot of people literally think that prayer works for the most mundane of things. I cannot at all accept that petitionary prayer works. It just goes against all my thoughts about what a God would be. It may help the person doing the praying feel better, with that I would not disagree at all. I just don't think that God can be petitioned to intervene on our behalf. When I hear people praying for silly little things and believing it works, it is almost insulting to me. I would feel very arrogant if I thought God helped me get a job, but not save a dying child. If saying that is a step over the bounds, please let me know. I don't mean to offend at all, but if we are talking honestly about some of the reasons we are non-religious, that is a big one for me.

 

[KDbeads]

CC... I was raised that prayer for petty is an insult to the person praying and an insult to god. One of those fundamental things that is no longer adhered to in more and more of today's churches. I don't think it does anyone any good to think that if they pray about getting '(insert petty whatever here)' they will get it because god thinks they deserve it. If you can't work for it, you don't need it is how I was raised.

 

[EweSheep]

As for prayers, I do not say in religious way but just thinking about them, hope they will get well fast or hope that one can help them in the trying times and needs. I pretty much agree with City Chicker.
If I was in real bad way such in going for surgery or soooooo sick, I would say something like this in prayer God, please let me live thru the surgery, bless those people who are helping getting better and give the surgeon a steady hand while he is performing surgery. If you think it is time for me to go, do it quickly without pain and look after my dd and hubby. See you later!

Prayers or just "time out" for silent time for sending wishes aren't necessarily a bad thing.

My Dad was from a Methodist family who went to church every Sunday until he left home. He still uses the Bible teachings to this day. He believes in them totally but very understanding how I felt and sometimes he would be a good source of information on any of the questions I may have regarding to the verses or moral things that humans do. He does it well and he is certainly tolerative of gays and people who does not think likewise as his.

My mother on the other hand, her whole family, her parents and 6 siblings, they never went to church devotedly. My mom has gone to Sunday School simply because of her friends. However they love good Sunday dinners! Prayers were never said. Bitterness and hatred run strong in her parents, they had a very difficult life during the depression, and strong role models were lacking. Mom was never in church with us when we went to church as a family, it was always my Dad and my sister and I going to church every Sunday until Dad got into a heated debate with the minister which prompt Dad to find another church. I often ask Mom why she never get involved with religious stuff and she said she never felt comfortable but letting us go and find religion is what she had encourage us to do so, finding the morals and compassion for all people in all walks of life. I will have to ask her what her stand in religion next time I see her. Was it wrong for her to "shun" away from church, no it was not to her. One thing I do KNOW for sure that all of us enjoyed, was watching Billy Graham with his sermons which some of it was great to hear and can be applied to every day life in how you treat people. However forcing all those people (in stadiums AND TV) to come and join Jesus and God in your hearts, it bothers me and notice it bothers Mom...she was uncomfortable with that issue which she thinks Mr Graham is questioning her strength in faith. I felt like a lamb coming for slaughter feeling like that and if I do not WANT to come forward or give something 100% of my heart to God and Jesus, I've got a REAL problem with that. My question was "What for? What is the moral reason behind that statement?" "Does it prove anything just by doing that?" "Do I have to PROVE IT?"It just confuses me from time to time. I do not think I would ever be satisfied with the answers and hope to find it when I die.

I was bapitized as well. Did it turned me a new leaf? Temporarily it did provide a good feeling of togetherness among the members of the church but before long, it wore off and saw nothing really has changed and the members were still "backstabbing" one another in real life away from the church grounds. I do not think baptism really benefit me any good in long term in life and a good dunking in water didn't wash away my existing problems...they were still there afterwards...same friends and same family members, back to the old grind. Would I baptize my daughter? No, I would let her make her own decisions even she is attending a christian school, giving her all the benefits of the moral and compassion that the Bible can teach her but I do not expect her to follow every word and every motions they tell her to do it. She does her prayers at lunch, that's great and once in a while she would say her prayers at the table but hubby has to leave because it makes him uncomfortable which I understand he does not like religion at all, he believes Mother Nature, The Big Bang and evolution...that is great too. If my daughter wants to share something with me what she learned in Bible class, I would sit down with her and give her encouragements by saying, that is great in what you have learned! Do not ask me to interpret it because sometimes they would have a different meaning than I would. I could not be any more proud of her and how happy she is with that school than the public school she had. Respect is the big thing!