Anyone ordered from Sandhill Preservation before?

[speckledhen]

Professional wrote:
The serious breeder does so for his own benefit and enjoyment, not for profit, and certainly not for the benefit of other people.

Of course if people just want to perfect a particular kind of chicken in their backyard for their own private pleasure or the pleasure of a small circle of buddies, that is perfectly fine.

Only, wouldn't it be nice if there were more (there are some, of course) serious poultry breeders who did it mainly for the love of the breed, because they think it's a really great kind of chicken? And don't have much of a problem with everyone else getting to enjoy that really great kind of chicken, too?

Having less-perfect examples of the breed out there does not impinge on anyone's show wins. It only impinges on peoples' ability to continue perfecting their own flock insofar as selling eggs/chicks gives you a smaller pool from which to select as you work towards the basically-arbitrary Standard. But the main effect of having less-than-perfect examples out there is just to reduce the rarity and brag-value of the breed (/color/whatever).

Breeders who genuinely believe their breed is a really terrific animal are common enough in other kinds of domestic animals. While sometimes it swings too far in the other direction towards overbreeding (and I am not talking about for money, like in puppy mills, I am just talking about overenthusiastic insufficiently-critical proponents of their fave breed), there is a really big happy medium that many people do occupy.

And certainly there are other hobbies (again, not all, but a number of them) where the most-experienced and winning-est people *welcome* newcomers to the hobby, and try to help them get a good start... again, because they just think the hobby is good and realize that other people might enjoy it as much as they do.

Be nice if there was a bit more of that in chickens as well, to my way of thinking, and a bit less clubbishness sometimes. Not always. But, sometimes.

Just my personal view,

Pat​

Well, Pat, you and I don't always agree, but this time we do.

Professional, if you want to breed chickens to whatever standard satisfies you and keep them to yourself or just exhibit them/share them with only certain people, that is entirely your perogative, I never said otherwise. It is a mindset I don't share, but hey, it takes all kinds to make the world go round, right? My main contention is with the way you do things with regard to the inquiries about hatching eggs/chicks by just ignoring these people rather than shooting back a 2 second email that says, "Thanks, but I don't do that.".​

 

[Professional]

I fell as a breeder you have a responsibility to the breed you love to educate others interested in the breed

.

That's where we differ, I think. I feel that my responsibility is to myself, to persue my hobby in the manner that pleases me, after all, I'm the one paying the bills. That said, I love to educate other who are serious, but, again, IMO, if they want show birds from chicks or eggs, they're wasting their time, and telling them so is trying to educate them.

I guess I just would like all of these breeders unwilling to answer e-mails or phone calls to remember all of the people who refused to help them when they got started and remember how much it hurt to be ignored for no good reason.

It's a tough world out there, and it helps to develop a thick skin, just move on and not take those kinds of things so personally.

Oh and I would be happy to pay $150 for hatching eggs if the stock is great.

I would be ashamed to ask for that much. My birds are good, but still the chances are low that you would get a good quality show bird from that small amount. You'd be better to buy a trio, and hatch 50 or 75 eggs from them. I get that you're not interested in show stock, but the topic had drifted toward that, and that's what my comments were directed toward.

I don't think this is true across the board. I think there are some very good breeders who deal with hatching eggs or chicks.

Bev's Marans for example - Bev is known as being one of the best breeders of Marans in the country, and she only sells hatching eggs. Her waiting list is so long that you have to cool your heels for eons while waiting to get eggs, but a lot of people think it's worth it, I believe.

But this shows that you don't understand what it is we've been discussing: the idea of getting show type birds by purchasing hatching eggs. Marans are not a recognized breed, therefore, there is no such thing at this point of a show winning Maran. If you want to follow the latest fad, get birds for fun, for the backyard, or whatever, then that's great, eggs are the way to go, but, again, you need to hatch a much greater number of birds than just a dozen or two in order to have a better chance at producing a show winner.

Of course its a bit of a lotto when you start with eggs, and you shouldn't expect every egg to pop out a standard of perfection. I would be interested in eggs from a very serious breeder, who has been running a wonderful breeding program for years, breeding out many birds every year and selecting only a few to carry on to the next, to make a beginning with a breed. I wouldn't expect each bird to be 'perfect', I would expect something I could begin with. I wouldn't think of it as "a waste of time" either - my interest is in learning about breeding and beginning to work with my flock, not in instantaneously becoming a winning show breeder. I'm thinking in terms of the long haul -

Now you're on the right track, but.....

the level of encouragement (very low) in Professional's posts makes me realize how hard this is going to be.

.. you need to go back and read my posts carefully. I want to encourage you, I want you to succeed, by telling you a way to go about it that will make it more likely that you will have success, and not get discouraged and fail. Hand holding and sugar coating is not the way to go about it, IMO.

But what is a beginner to do, then? Leave the hobby? Or keep trying? No one starts from a high level of knowledge, and it's hard to make connections with breeders. Unless you start with a friend or relative who's already in the hobby, and can guide you, it seems you have to start by floundering about, doing what you can, reading whatever you find, and hoping to get somewhere. I just hope that there are a handful of breeders out there willing to give a noobie a break!

That is exactly what you do. You're 100% correct, just keep trying and learning and it will come. Take your birds to a show, any birds, whatever you have as long as they appear to be purebred. Keep at it, for a few years. If you're serious that is what you'll do. Talk to the breeders, ask questions. You don't have to agree and do everything that they say, but just listen and learn. You'll get some good advice, some bad. You'll get some that you don't think is right, now, but in years to come you'll realize that you were wrong. You'll get a few people to snicker because you have hatchery or poor birds, but I guarantee that if you've been in it for three years, you'll finally get some breeder to approach you with a helpful suggestion about how to improve, or where to get good birds, maybe even offering to give you something better than you have. Poultry exhibitors are the only livestock exhibition hobbiests who will gladly give or sell you cheaply a bird that will hopefully help you to breed birds that will beat them. Remember, most of us go to shows strictly for the socialization. After winning for a while, it's just another win, but the friendships and good times are priceless. Contrary to what those who have never done it assume, it is not the cutthroat snobbery which they imagine. Like I said, I've been involved with all of those other species, and you can have most of them. You don't have to believe me, but try and find out for yourself and see who is right, me, who has done it, or the others who just sit and complain about the show snobs because no one is selling them a cheap dozen to help them get started in what they think is the easy way.

And certainly there are other hobbies (again, not all, but a number of them) where the most-experienced and winning-est people *welcome* newcomers to the hobby, and try to help them get a good start... again, because they just think the hobby is good and realize that other people might enjoy it as much as they do.

Be nice if there was a bit more of that in chickens as well, to my way of thinking, and a bit less clubbishness sometimes. Not always. But, sometimes.

Pat, sorry, but this is just so far from how it actually is. If you actually tried it for a few years for yourself you would see that. You're going to find a bit of that in chickens, like in any other part of life, but it's so minor compared to anything else, that IMO, if you can't get along at poultry shows, you won't get along anywhere else.​

 

[Professional]

My main contention is with the way you do things with regard to the inquiries about hatching eggs/chicks by just ignoring these people rather than shooting back a 2 second email that says, "Thanks, but I don't do that.".

You don't have to agree with my methods, any more than I have to agree with yours. I'm just trying to give you another perspective that you haven't considered, as to why some serious breeders don't waste their time with chick and egg requests. You don't have to like it, but no one owes anyone else a return call or email, unless there is already a business transaction in place. That's just a fact of life.​

 

[hensdeliverthegoods]

Sorry, but I'm getting the strong scent of a troll....

 

[speckledhen]

Mr. Pro, have you been on this forum under another name previously? Your writing style and general, well, shall we say, outlook, seems very familiar to me. Just wondering....
Also, are you listed as a breeder of X breed of chicken somewhere? If you are on a list as a breeder, then that implies that you may have birds, chicks and/or eggs to sell, quite a natural assumption to make for someone seeing your name on said list, IMO. If so, then you would, of course, receive inquiries from time to time. And if you do not reply to any of those, that would leave a bad taste in someone's mouth, I'd think. Just a fact of life, as you put it.

 

[coopist]

LOL, speckledhen. Yes'm, that outlook sure does sound familiar.

The whole show-breeding vs. preservation argument is rather like a poultry-based holy war, really, with the snide comments about Sand Hill and preservation-in-general being the stock in trade of one side, and the hallelujah chorus surrounding backyard flocks of rare birds on the other. Big ole yawn.

None of this changes the fact that Sand Hill is an entirely decent source of rare breeds with a major backlog (and yes, some "service" issues--as I believe I indicated in my original post), and they will most likely continue to be just that for at least a few more years. At which point, they'll get too old to maintain their hobby business, and we'll be at the mercy of the tight-fisted or obscure or elitist breeder on one hand and the hatcheries on the other. Some will heave a sigh of relief. Others will mourn. Some will shrug. For now, though, some of us believe more options = better. Just for now.

I, for one, certainly don't say G. Drowns can do no wrong or that his birds are always better than a hatchery. I would say they sometimes are better, but more importantly, they are available to the public. And those rarer breeds would not be available if the business were not overall a business with diversified stock (if that means Silkies, Cochins, whatever). And after all, he could no doubt provide better service all around if he'd go out of the poultry business and only stock and sell heirloom seed. Or, he could stop selling heirloom seed and sell poultry exclusively. I doubt he'll do either anytime soon. The business/preservation model he's working from seems to be a balance of diversity and availability with salability. We do know that he doesn't sell pearl White Leghorns and Monsanto seed. Good for him. He also doesn't breed exclusively for APA standards, but also for things like laying ability etc. This makes some gnash their teeth. But if I want better stock than he can provide because I have the APA standard in mind, y'know what? Good for me--I can try to track down a breeder. I might even find one

 

[Professional]

You guys are wrong. Never been here before under any name. Attack if you like, if you don't like a differing opinion, but I stand by my statements.

 

[Mrs MIA]

I do believe that this thread has gotten off track...

IMHO, if you (read: in general you) don't like the way a company/individual treats you, don't do business with them. Plain and simple. Everyone's experience is different.

 

[ksacres]

Actually, I see that Professional has made some valid points. Not that I 100% agree with everything, but there is a lot of truth in what he's saying. Especially about showing what you have, breeding with what you have, and trying to make it better, that's the goal of every serious breeder, good stock, bad stock, or mediocre stock-makes no difference, a breeder will always be adjusting, improving. A judge's criticism will only help you to understand the breed better, allow you to see things you might not have seen otherwise. Prove your commitment by being commited, that makes perfect sense to me.

Now, I have seen other posts, and perhaps the delivery seems a little callous, but sometimes that's just the reality of it.

Implying someone is a troll because they have differing views than yours is not right.

 

[speckledhen]

I had a serious question about whether Professional had been a member previously under another screen name; so many have changed theirs. I never implied he was a troll. I really did think he sounded familiar. Anyone is allowed to have a differing opinion, certainly, myself included, as I stated in one of my posts. I just wanted to know if he was listed as a breeder of something on a list somewhere and if so, that is why he is getting inquiries. A breeder's listing implies that he has something to sell and of course, will have inquiries. To put your name out there then not answer didn't make sense to me, but if I have misunderstood and he is not listed as a breeder, my apologies.