Anyone Owning A Friesian Please Help Help Help!!!!PICTURES ADDED!!!!

Discussion in 'Other Pets & Livestock' started by Chicken Fruit, Sep 5, 2009.

  1. Chicken Fruit

    Chicken Fruit Chillin' With My Peeps

    Feb 25, 2009
    Echo Homestead
    Is anyone familiar with buying an enutero foal and the process of registration and taking delivery? Could they please help me understand the process better... FHANA and my insurance company are telling me one thing, the breeder is telling me something different... Both make sense, but one doesnt seem to protect my interests much.

    I own the foal, it will be 4 months old in a few weeks, but has already been weaned long before I was told and expecting it would be. So its not on the dam for me to confirm who is who that way. The breeder is out of state from me, so its not like I can go down and paint a white stripe on my baby. I have been requested to take delivery at my earliest convenience, and she's due to come home very soon.

    I was told by fhana repeatedly that the breeder sends in the birth announcement within 30 days of the foal's birth, receives a chip and DNA kit, the breeder has the chip implanted and the DNA pulled at the same time, and after the U of K does the dna verification the registration is sent to me, the owner. FHANA and my insurance company are insisting I not take delivery on a foal without the chip in place as there is no way of knowing which foal is being delivered to me, and it is impossible if the DNA does not come back later to be true to the breeding to find out WHAT the breeding is. All of this is generally done in the foals 2nd month of life, while on the dam and thus helps to verify which foal is being implanted with the chip, and supplying the DNA sample- according to FHANA. FHANA seems to think that the birth announcement should have been received on my foal already, as its nearly 4 months old, but theres no record- I keep checking every week.

    My breeder is explaining that they cannot do anything more than send in the birth announcement, which they insist they already have and will include a copy of that paper with the foal when it is delivered by my transporters. If they sent the announcement in and requested the DNA and chip kit the papers would have to be sent to them, showing them as the owners and not me. Therefore, it has to do it when I receive the foal. The breeder insists that this is a way or protecting my investment, because so long as I am the one pulling the DNA sample, I will know exactly which animal it came from- the filly I bought and they made sure I took delivery of.

    At this point i dont know who to believe. Maybe this is a new breeder or something, or maybe the different people I keep talking to at FHANA are confused about the process. I know I for one am completely confused. It makes sense that a vet would come out and implant the chip and pull the DNA all at the same time as its a third party and the foal would be on the dam, which he could verify with a chip reader. But it also makes sense that FHANA would not transfer ownership if the breeder completes the DNA sample-

    Someone help.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2009
  2. Rusty Hills Farm

    Rusty Hills Farm Chillin' With My Peeps

    Apr 3, 2008
    Up at the barn
    I am NOT involved in Friesians. However, as a long-time owner/breeder of quarter horses, I CAN tell you that I follow whatever AQHA instructs because they are the one issuing the certificate. Breeders, no matter how well-meaning, have no actual control over how the breed association issues its certificates. If you do what the breeder says, the association could easily decide not to issue the certificate because you did not follow THEIR registration rules and instructions.

    JMO


    Rusty
     
  3. The Chicken Lady

    The Chicken Lady Moderator Staff Member

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    Apr 21, 2008
    West Michigan
    This would be a great topic to ask over at our sister site, BackYardHerds. [​IMG] There is a whole section devoted to horses there.
     
  4. Duck Keeper

    Duck Keeper Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Mar 18, 2009
    Out in the Boonies
    I don't think I would be trusting the breeder right about now...

    If I weren't allergic to horses. [​IMG]
     
  5. Chicken Fruit

    Chicken Fruit Chillin' With My Peeps

    Feb 25, 2009
    Echo Homestead
    Quote:hey thanks for that!
     
  6. Chicken Fruit

    Chicken Fruit Chillin' With My Peeps

    Feb 25, 2009
    Echo Homestead
    I still cant get this lady to even tell me when she sent in the paper work that she insists she sent in. I dont understand why she's being so offended by my asking. I'll tell you what though, I will NEVER deal with her again. Ever.

    I wish fhana was open on sundays so I could call and ask AGAIN.

    Anyone else have any ideas?
     
  7. anngili

    anngili Chillin' With My Peeps

    I'd follow what the breed association says. Once you take delivery of that foal, things are going to get a LOT tougher if it isn't what you purchased. Sounds almost like a "bait and switch" deal. She may have lost the foal and be trying to give you another one and still get the money.

    I don't think the breeder has actually sent in the birth announcement. It shouldn't be any problem to them to send in a second one in case FHANA lost the first one. You might even send them a pre-printed birth announcement with a pre-stamped envelope addressed to FHANA. That way presumably all they'd have to do is to sign and mail it in.

    If they won't do that, I'd tell them it is now up to them to prove that the foal is actually the one you're paying for. I certainly wouldn't take delivery without knowing that's the case.
    I'd also check with a lawyer to see if taking delivery would in essence be an aknowledgement on your part that the foal is the one you ordered because if it is, you'd be SOL as of the delivery.
     
  8. patandchickens

    patandchickens Flock Mistress

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    Ontario, Canada
    If you want a Friesian-specific answer, my suggestion is to call some widely-advertising well-respected Friesian breeders and do a bit of shuffling and aw-shucks-ing and apologizing and then say, with NO NAMES attached at all, that you just really need some advice from within the Friesian world and they seemed like the people to ask.

    Chances are pretty good that at least some of the calls you make will bear fruit, advice-wise.

    Other than that, I would go with what FHANA and the vet are telling you. But, if it were me, YOU employ the vet who does the job, if at all possible (that is, you call him up, make it clear you're paying him, etc, although undoubtedly he will have to make the *appointment* with the breeder). The breeder may just be 'odd' but this is sounding fishier and fishier and fishier.

    You do not have to pull the blood yourself to know what horse it came from -- the 'guarantee' there is that they're chipping the horse at the same time. Unless you have a very shady vet, this will let you be pretty darn confident that the DNA sample is from the horse you take delivery of, b/c you will (I would hope) have the weanling scanned to confirm its identity. Intentional shenanigans involving KNOWINGLY pulling blood from one horse but chipping another would be the only way for things to go awry this way.

    (Whereas, as you very rightly fear, if they just deliver you "a" foal, you will be pretty much Stuck if [sounds more like "when"] the horse turns out to have the wrong parentage from what your contract specified; you can take the seller to civil court but that is expensive and unpleasant and time consuming, and does not always end up with the most sensible judgement occurring).

    You should find out from FHANA what their DNA typing procedures are -- if they have samples already on file from all their registered brood stock, then you are ok, but if their DNA typing policies are still in an earlier stage of organization and they do not have data on both sire and dam of your horse, then you need to find out whether the horse will be properly registerable if such info is not also submitted, and what happens if the horse should turn out in the future to have different parentage.

    As far as the foal ending up registered to the breeder, if you have paid for this foal as per your contract, I do not see why you would not be listed as the owner on the resulting registration papers -- farms do that sort of thing all the time for absentee owners, which you are. Ask FHANA, but unless they have some special weird rule, you are being blown smoke rings... unless most of the balance of the contract is as yet unpaid, in which case the breeder *is* still the (or anyhow, a co-) owner of the foal, which makes it a little more complicated and you should ask FHANA what happens if you can prove that you have paid in full for the horse but the previous owner has the papers and will not relinquish them nor sign paperwork on the subject.

    (edited to add: if you have not, in fact, paid all or most of the contract amount, you might consider just calling it a lesson and walking away, if bloodlines or getting-a-good-deal matter to you. I would, quite frankly, be pretty surprised at this point if you get a foal that has documentably got the parentage you were paying for. Maybe that foal exists, and would be shipped to you if you do not provide any loopholes for wriggling through; but maybe it doesn't. OTOH, if you just want a purty, black, hairy horse [​IMG], then it may not be worth stressing so much on the whole registration and parentage thing -- whether it's registerable affects its resale price but not its ability to be a wonderful riding or driving mount for you.)

    Good luck, you need it,

    Pat
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2009
  9. farrier!

    farrier! Chillin' With My Peeps

    Feb 28, 2009
    Southern Illinois
    Quote:This is true.
    You are being lied to by the breeder.

    I can give you a name and number of an active breeder you can contact if you would like.

    From the horror stories I have heard from you odds are you are dealing with someone who does not have a pure horse or lacks the ownership of the mare.

    Find out who the recoded owner of the sire and dam of the foal (is it a filly or a colt?) also contact the stallion owner to find out if they bred the mare.

    Have you received pictures of the foal from birth on?

    Have you received a veterinarian certificate that the foal (again male or female?) is healthy and sound? There are a large number of genetic problems that Friesian foals can have. The least of them is umbilical hernias.

    To people who breed foals no baby (even interbred Friesians) do not look alike. If You do not have weekly pictures of this foal odds are you do not have a purebred.

    So sorry... [​IMG]
     
  10. patandchickens

    patandchickens Flock Mistress

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    Apr 20, 2007
    Ontario, Canada
    farrier! :

    From the horror stories I have heard from you odds are you are dealing with someone who does not have a pure horse or lacks the ownership of the mare.

    Other possibilities for Chicken Fruit to consider are that they have *a* purebred but not the one advertised; that the sire is different from advertised; that the seller has not actually *got* friesian foals at all but is preparing to leave the country real soon now; or, what I would mildly put my money on, that they are playing a shell game where they may actually have a friesian foal of the described parentage but have found it expedient to sell it several different times and have to find the other buyers "a" friesian-lookin' weanling so that they do not *have* to go to the trouble of leaving the country real soon.

    I suppose it is *conceivable* this is on the up and up but the seller is certainly not acting like it.

    I'm sorry your "great deal" is causing you so much grief, Chicken Fruit; and I really hope you can get this resolved one way or the other depending on what you want (that exact foal, "a" friesian foal, or to get out of it without losing any more money than necessary)

    Best of luck,

    Pat​
     

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