Architectural Guidelines vs. Covenants in HOA

[hlflynn]

Hi Everyone,

I am new to this site, so forgive me if this has been asked before. I live in a neighborhood with an HOA and covenants. I am exploring the possibility of lobbying for a change to allow a few hens. I was reading through them and noticed that the actual Covenants don't specifically prohibit hens, but it states that permission must be obtained. Here is the actual wording:

"Section 6. Animals and Pets. No stable, dog run, poultry house or yard or other similar structure shall be constructed or allowed to remain on any Lot, nor shall livestock or any nature or classification whatsoever be kept or maintained on any Lot without the express written permission of the Association first had and obtained. However, a reasonable number of household pets as determined by the Board of Directors of the Association shall be permitted, provided they are not raised for commercial purposes."

I was rather optimistic upon reading this, as it seemed to leave an opening, however, fast forward to the Architectural Guidelines for our neighborhood, and it states the following:

No animals, exotic animals, livestock, or poultry of any kind shall be raised, bred, or kept on any lot, except that dogs, cats, or other household pets may be kept, provided that they are not bred or maintained for commercial purposes.​

I have not intention of breeding them. I would just like to have a couple of pets and enjoy their eggs. I guess my question is, are they even allowed to enforce the statement in the "Architectural Guidelines" when that list of rules is supposed to pertain to building and lot appearance, and what can be constructed on a lot. It would seem as though this statement should have been in the overall covenants if it was the case, as it contradicts the covenants statement that written approval must be obtained.

Any input or thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. If I can find a loophole, I would gladly take advantage of it. Thanks for you help.

Regards,
H.F. in NC

 

[chfite]

It seems to me that one could go either way based upon what is written. You could successfully argue that chickens kept for their eggs would constitute "pets" as many posit. Covenants and restrictions in neighborhoods can be notoriously difficult to amend. It seems that you don't need an amendment, just permission to keep the chickens.

If you could collar a suitably ranked member of the association's approval committee over coffee and steer the conversation to healthy lifestyle, exercise, raising home gardens, and slip chickens into the conversation, you might be able to feel him out and draw some nuggets of wisdom on how such might go over. With enough politicking, you might be able to plumb exactly what needs to be done to gain this permission without alienating the board members.

Good luck.

Chris

 

[jungletoy]

I'm President of our POA (property), but before you break out the pitchforks and torches, think Brubaker. To exist in or change a system you must understand it in detail. Besides my wife volunteered us, I'm guessing in retribution for something I didn't know I did. I can't tell you specific legalities but I can tell you it's part of the Federal Governments Ombudsman program (bureaucracy). The basic guideline is that the HOA cannot enact laws. Consult the zoning of your property and see if there are any ordinances regarding livestock. This is your leverage because many times boards overstep their governance. They may very well have a non-enforceable code on the books. In other words their covenant is illegal and contrary to local zoning ordinances. Not to say they won't lawyer up (they have a reserve for this) and bully you into submission if it gets slippery. The sausage is made in public and the board must maintain and post minutes as well as archive by recording device, the meeting itself. They cannot meet to discuss HOA matters unless there is a quorum.

Another suggestion would be to contact the Treasurer or Secretary and get on the agenda or look at an existing agenda and present in the section where homeowners are permitted three minutes to speak. You should have enough handouts for the board and an archive. This document should be all about how you are going to mitigate noise, smells, biological contaminates or anything that would cause the board to actually govern. I would socialize this with neighbors to the right left and rear. Using chicken egg logic, neighbors can be bribed with eggs or black gold. And if their price is high enough you get to buy more chickens!!!

Seriously, having advocates and signed letter stating you have explained your intent to them and that they are on board, will go a long way in greasing the skids. See if there are other people in your development who want chickens. The mob doth rule after all. The less prepared they are, the less likely any sort of supportable argument can be made against your request. Beware of the expert who slept in a Holiday Inn Express the night before.

Boards by nature, will pursue the path of least resistance, use this to your advantage. Be professional and prepared for any questions or mistatement of facts or psuedo science, however ludicrous they may be. You will have to debunk common chicken/avian myths regarding Bird Flu or West Nile Virus vectors. Sadly, I would give up any hope of ever owning a rooster unless his name is Marcell Marceau. You may want to use that as a compromise chip to remove from the table even if you have no intention of getting one. " Ok, I won't have a rooster but I want six hens instead of four."

Know your enemy. Attend the next meeting, note how they conduct the meeting, and the players. Prepare your document for the appropriate level of the board (simple=more pictures, intelligent=some words too). Ask to view the minutes of the past meetings to see if some intrepid soul before you has tested these waters. Concise bullet points in your presentation with your supporting documentation near-line and not part of your presentation. If they seem to waffle, offer a trial study period of demonstratable responsiblity. This is commonly known as sticking your foot in the door or more notoriously, the Kalifornia renters protection act. Basically, once you're in you're in. The burden to provide evidence to perform chickenus evictus now falls on them.

This whole movement to take back control of our food is starting to get big and there may be other local communities that have these programs enacted. You can also take a copy of your covenents and let the Ombudsman representative research it's 'legalness' for you. Just to reiterate, check your local zoning laws as this will be the over-arching rule of law and render anything your board may have enacted to the contrary not enforcible.

Good luck, it is a noble cause. Who knows your board may be very forward thinking and need a chair to head the committe to add BYC addendum to your covenants.

P.S Don't forget the Blue Laws. Silly they may be they are laws . Just make sure they are favorable to your cause. If I had known I couldn't race camels on Saturday down Main Street it may have affected my decision to live here.

 

[jungletoy]

After re-reading Section six with my glasses on this is a classic over-stepping of HOA governance:

"However, a reasonable number of household pets as determined by the Board of Directors of the Association shall be permitted, provided they are not raised for commercial purposes."


Firstly, the board can not tell you how many household pets you can have there are laws that are very specific as to type and quantity within the zoning restrictions. Secondly, for it to have any teeth it must be specific delineation not:

"We'll hear your story and then pass down from on high, our subjective interpretation of 'reasonable' as it relates to you or our biases towards your pet selection."

"Yes! Yes! I hate big dogs. One time a big dog ate my little Fifi. You get one large stinky dog. And I get ten little dogs because I'm reasonable."

I'm thinking your HOA environment, like most suffers from a little tiny, tinsy bit of Napoleanic Hitlerism.

They are not qualified nor sanctioned to interpret the law, which there are for domestic pets and livestock. Nor can they presume to stand in for the business develepment board and tell you what you can and cannot do with your Home business and proper special use permit from the State licensing office. I would check all of your CC&Rs against local ordinances. Where there is one glaring mistake there are usually others. I would also be a little disappointed in the counsel retained by your board in signing off on these covenants. They would appear to be directly in conflict with actual laws most states have, unless Virginia has lost their minds and delegated authority to HOAs staffed by unqulified volunteers. Quite sure you could bypass the whole board by obtaining a Farmers Market vendor license and selling eggs. Either way your in a pretty good position to BYC provided the local zoning ordinances don't tank you.

Your board may be entirely competent just niave or ignorant (in the honest sincere form). Many descrepancies like this don't get found until something or someone challenges it. I have definitely experienced this in acounting practices and some self-serving and entirely unlawful 'decisions' by previous boards before my tenure. Also keep in mind, because Murphy is always in the house, it is easier for the board to place a lien against your property than it is for you to remove it and you will most likely pay a service fee for the privledge to do so.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

After re-reading Section six with my glasses on this is a classic over-stepping of HOA governance:

"However, a reasonable number of household pets as determined by the Board of Directors of the Association shall be permitted, provided they are not raised for commercial purposes."


Firstly, the board can not tell you how many household pets you can have there are laws that are very specific as to type and quantity within the zoning restrictions. Secondly, for it to have any teeth it must be specific delineation not:

"We'll hear your story and then pass down from on high, our subjective interpretation of 'reasonable' as it relates to you or our biases towards your pet selection."

"Yes! Yes! I hate big dogs. One time a big dog ate my little Fifi. You get one large stinky dog. And I get ten little dogs because I'm reasonable."

I'm thinking your HOA environment, like most suffers from a little tiny, tinsy bit of Napoleanic Hitlerism.

They are not qualified nor sanctioned to interpret the law, which there are for domestic pets and livestock. Nor can they presume to stand in for the business develepment board and tell you what you can and cannot do with your Home business and proper special use permit from the State licensing office. I would check all of your CC&Rs against local ordinances. Where there is one glaring mistake there are usually others. I would also be a little disappointed in the counsel retained by your board in signing off on these covenants. They would appear to be directly in conflict with actual laws most states have, unless Virginia has lost their minds and delegated authority to HOAs staffed by unqulified volunteers. Quite sure you could bypass the whole board by obtaining a Farmers Market vendor license and selling eggs. Either way your in a pretty good position to BYC provided the local zoning ordinances don't tank you.

Your board may be entirely competent just niave or ignorant (in the honest sincere form). Many descrepancies like this don't get found until something or someone challenges it. I have definitely experienced this in acounting practices and some self-serving and entirely unlawful 'decisions' by previous boards before my tenure. Also keep in mind, because Murphy is always in the house, it is easier for the board to place a lien against your property than it is for you to remove it and you will most likely pay a service fee for the privledge to do so.

HOA covenants are CONTRACTS between the association and individual members, and while the covenants cannot override law, they can be more strict. For example if the ordinance or zoning code says "no more than 5 pets per lot"; the HOA cannot allow 7 pets per lot. However, they could further restrict to a maximum of 3. Zoning code may allow certain types of animals, but that does not mean that the HOA cannot further restrict what is allowed. Enforcement is via lawsuit, not the local police or dog catcher.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Hi Everyone,

I am new to this site, so forgive me if this has been asked before. I live in a neighborhood with an HOA and covenants. I am exploring the possibility of lobbying for a change to allow a few hens. I was reading through them and noticed that the actual Covenants don't specifically prohibit hens, but it states that permission must be obtained. Here is the actual wording:

"Section 6. Animals and Pets. No stable, dog run, poultry house or yard or other similar structure shall be constructed or allowed to remain on any Lot, nor shall livestock or any nature or classification whatsoever be kept or maintained on any Lot without the express written permission of the Association first had and obtained. However, a reasonable number of household pets as determined by the Board of Directors of the Association shall be permitted, provided they are not raised for commercial purposes."

I was rather optimistic upon reading this, as it seemed to leave an opening, however, fast forward to the Architectural Guidelines for our neighborhood, and it states the following:

No animals, exotic animals, livestock, or poultry of any kind shall be raised, bred, or kept on any lot, except that dogs, cats, or other household pets may be kept, provided that they are not bred or maintained for commercial purposes.​

I have not intention of breeding them. I would just like to have a couple of pets and enjoy their eggs. I guess my question is, are they even allowed to enforce the statement in the "Architectural Guidelines" when that list of rules is supposed to pertain to building and lot appearance, and what can be constructed on a lot. It would seem as though this statement should have been in the overall covenants if it was the case, as it contradicts the covenants statement that written approval must be obtained.

Any input or thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. If I can find a loophole, I would gladly take advantage of it. Thanks for you help.

Regards,
H.F. in NC

Are other rules that are not related to structures listed in the Architectural Guidelines? Are there other sets of rules? It could be that the document is really a poorly titled set of overall rules. Or it may have started as simply Architectural rules, and it was easier to add a few rules to it rather than create a new document. You need to look through the whole CC&Rs to see what the procedure is for changing the Architectural Guidelines or other rules.

chfite had some good suggestions.

 

[jungletoy]

"HOA covenants are CONTRACTS between the association and individual members, and while the covenants cannot override law, they can be more strict. For example if the ordinance or zoning code says "no more than 5 pets per lot"; the HOA cannot allow 7 pets per lot. However, they could further restrict to a maximum of 3. Zoning code may allow certain types of animals, but that does not mean that the HOA cannot further restrict what is allowed. Enforcement is via lawsuit, not the local police or dog catcher."

Yes and no, if the contract is illegal it will be voided when tested in court, assuming it gets that far. Master planned community HOA powers usually only cover parking, indigenous landscaping, home elevations and construction materials as they pertain to elevations. Some cases it may be extended to cover TEMPORARY sheds. The rest is managing the association budget and compliance requirements of the HOA itself.

The board can vote and pass any initiative they want, this does not make it legal or enforceable. Adding new amendments is a pain for the board and must be voted on by the entire association. Working that route presents challenges for the board as well. We revise ours every three years because of this challenge. Sometimes the County ordinances or regulations change and the board isn't aware. It's a full time job that requires a lot tedious work and research, which is usually accomplished by five individuals with full time lives, that meet once a month.

H.F,

Please check your local ordinances, then take your CC&R's to your local Ombudsman office or email them, they are extremely helpful. Most people don't what know what this office does and the person will probably relish the encounter. This information will be free and will go a long way in planning your strategy.


If your HOA puts a lien against your property, wrong, right, or indifferent, you will pay lawyers to remove it. Even if you win and get recompensated for all your expenses, it will be two or more years down the road. In these situations it is better to humbly seek permission or follow the guidelines rather than ask for forgiveness later. In this case all they are doing is asking you to submit a request. If the request says " I want chickens!" you will most like get rejected. If you give them a packet of BYC marketing (benefits of eggs, etc), your coop diagrams with yard layout. Include your steps for mitigation of noise, sound and smell. You follow the requset up by attending the next meeting to answer fully, any questions about the request.

Be cooperative and volunteer to do thier job you will most likely be susccessful. Really what it comes down to is what you are prepared to execute on and your coping mechanisms for boot-licking. If it seems to much, RECRUIT, more hands make less work! Tupperware, Avon and the like made a fortunes in living rooms across America using social engineering under a tea-social guise. Be an ambassador. Many of you going through these challenges are the Vanguard so how you carry self and the image of responsible BYC'ers portrayed is very important. This is our brand, represent it in good faith, defend it professionally and competently when they sling mud. Good luck!

 

[Southchick]

I'm President of our POA (property), but before you break out the pitchforks and torches, think Brubaker. To exist in or change a system you must understand it in detail. Besides my wife volunteered us, I'm guessing in retribution for something I didn't know I did.  I can't tell you specific legalities but I can tell you it's part of the Federal Governments Ombudsman program (bureaucracy). The basic guideline is  that the HOA cannot enact laws. Consult the zoning of your property and see if there are any ordinances regarding livestock. This is your leverage because many times boards overstep their governance. They may very well have a non-enforceable code on the books. In other words their covenant is illegal and contrary to local zoning ordinances. Not to say they won't lawyer up (they have a reserve for this) and bully you into submission if it gets slippery. The sausage is made in public and the board must maintain and post minutes as well as archive by recording device, the meeting itself. They cannot meet to discuss HOA matters unless there is a quorum.

Another suggestion would be to contact the Treasurer or Secretary and get on the agenda or look at an existing agenda and present in the section where homeowners are permitted three minutes to speak. You should have enough handouts for the board and an archive. This document should be all about how you are going to mitigate  noise, smells, biological contaminates or anything that would cause the board to actually govern. I would socialize this with neighbors to the right left and rear.  Using chicken egg logic, neighbors can be bribed with eggs or black gold. And if their price is high enough you get to buy more chickens!!!

Seriously, having advocates and signed letter stating you have explained your intent to them and that they are on board, will go a long way in greasing the skids. See if there are other people in your development who want chickens. The mob doth rule after all.  The less prepared they are, the less likely any sort of supportable argument can be made against your request. Beware of the expert who slept in a Holiday Inn Express the night before.

Boards by nature, will pursue the path of least resistance, use this to your advantage. Be professional and prepared for any questions or mistatement of facts or psuedo science, however ludicrous they may be. You will have to debunk common chicken/avian myths regarding Bird Flu or West Nile Virus vectors. Sadly, I would  give up any hope of ever owning a rooster unless his name is Marcell Marceau. You may want to use that as a compromise chip to remove from the table even if you have no intention of getting one. " Ok, I won't have a rooster but I want six hens instead of four."

Know your enemy. Attend the next meeting, note how they conduct the meeting, and the players. Prepare your document for the appropriate level of the board (simple=more pictures, intelligent=some words too). Ask to view the minutes of the past meetings to see if some intrepid soul before you has tested these waters. Concise bullet points in your presentation with your supporting documentation near-line and not part of your presentation. If they seem to waffle, offer a trial study period of demonstratable responsiblity. This is commonly known as sticking your foot in the door or more notoriously, the Kalifornia renters protection act. Basically, once you're in you're in. The burden to provide evidence to perform chickenus evictus now falls on them. 

This whole movement to take back control of our food is starting to get big and there may be other local communities that have these programs enacted. You can also take a copy of your covenents and let the Ombudsman representative research it's 'legalness' for you. Just to reiterate, check your local zoning laws as this will be the over-arching rule of law and render anything your board may have enacted to the contrary not enforcible.

Good luck, it is a noble cause. Who knows your board may be very forward thinking and need a chair to head the committe to add BYC addendum to your covenants.




P.S Don't forget the Blue Laws. Silly they may be they are laws . Just make sure they are favorable to your cause. If I had known I couldn't race camels on Saturday down Main Street it may have affected my decision to live here.

 

You are hilarious and freakin informative. Thanks! I'll tuck this one away and pull it out if needed...which won't be happening anytime soon since we're in the back roads of the country. Don't plan on staying in the country much longer, but dead set on chickens.,,,