Are all Mallards toe clipped or banded at the hatcheries?

[daisygirlfp]

Here is the picture of my ducklings. Double eye stripe. Rouens?

 

[lomine]

Those look like Rouens. Super cute ones at that.

 

[daisygirlfp]

Don asked again what hatchery and was told that the clerk thought it was in Texas and that the manager would be back in a couple days. I contacted corporate and they researched the problem and let me know that the hatchery (still unidentified) shipped Rouens to that particular store. Obviously marketing strategy is different depending on which store you go to. I asked in another TSC near me and they immediately told me the name of the hatchery.
The good news is the Rouens are growing beautifully on grass pasture but locked up in a covered kennel still at night because our temperatures are in the low 20's.
Thanks for all your help!

 

[beachlegger]

Dear Daisygirlfp; I've just had a similar experience here in Florida. I won't mention the name of the dealer, but it turns out they were unwittingly breaking the laws, both federal and state. I purchased 13 rouens and 6 khaki campbells, none of which had been marked or banded. Now I'm faced with either "disposing" of my babies or pinioning (cutting off a wing tip), clipping a toe, tattooing or putting on a "seamless" metal band. I opt for the band but can't find any. Natband&tag's website doesn't come on a web search and all other merchants only carry plastic or split bands. From what I can ascertain, the purpose of this is to prevent domestic ducks, (Anas platyrhynchos) from breeding with the indigenous population, spreading disease, committing mass murder, getting their little webbed feet on Weapons of Mass Destruction, bla,bla bla.If a 10 lb rouen could fly, the only plausible solution would be to hack off a wing, like hamstringing a slave to keep him from "runnin off" In reality I suspect it has far more to do with the inability of the enforcers to differentiate between varieties Case in point ; CHINESE (peking) ducks are exempt even though they are quite capable of breeding with the locals . and can also carry disease and probably already have the "Bomb" but it's a big white duck like you see on the insurance commercials. Kind of insulting considering as a former duck hunter I was expected to spot and identify a duck in the dawn or dusk hours that's flying up to 120 mph before firing a shot! I plan on taking a piece of 3/4 aluminium tube, cutting it into 1/4 inch length, deburring and sliding it over the foot. Regulations say nothing about markings on the band, it's just another warm and fuzzy indignity to heap upon the heads of those who chose the company of ducks to politicians BTW, BYC.com is great lol.

 

[MeepBeep]

Dear Daisygirlfp;  I've just had a similar experience here in Florida. I won't mention the name of the dealer, but it turns out they were unwittingly breaking the laws, both federal and state.

Are your sure they are breaking the law, if so could you direct me to said law(s)?

From my understanding the Federal law(s) and from what I have read of FL law(s) is that those laws address domestic mallards and other protected migratory waterfowl, since rouens and khaki campbells are domestic breeds and neither mallards nor protected migratory waterfowl, the marking laws do not apply to them... The only exception would be the FL law mandating that all waterfowl be confined to your property and not released into the wild...

 

[beachlegger]

I found my info on http//myfwc.com under captive reared waterfowl To acquire and possess waterfowl, F.S.372.16 requires you to have a game farm permit($50.00), then look at 50 CFR 21.13 & 50 CFR 21.14 into proper marking of said waterfowl and don't forget your copy of Form 3-186, notice of waterfowl sale or transfer from the person whom you are buying the federally protected species and keep it on file as long as you possess the birds or their eggs or offspring. I would venture to imagine that you would need to furnish a similar form to whomever you transferred the waterfowl to, be it a sale, gift, whatever. More than likely, this could apply to a fertile egg. Speaking of eggs, if you wish to experience waves of nausea, look up the fed usda gfc, and dept of ag regs for the list of compliance and permit requirements to legally sell a **** egg- And don't get me started on trying to sell one for meat, You will have an easier time butchering and selling your children! I'm not making this up! Until you walk in to your farm supply store and get pulled aside by a friend/salesperson in a small town where everyone knows each other, and they reluctantly inform you that your purchase of the little ducklings you've come to love was not exactly according to Hoyle, you've never experienced a swift kick in the groin, I AM NOT A LAWYER!!! I am some poor smuck on a few acres in the woods that is content to raise a few rabbits, ducks chickens, and veggies and be left to heck alone, Good luck with that!!! Honestly, spend the next 72 hours feverently looking for your niche( loophole ) and get back with me, LOL (Lots of Luck)

 

[MeepBeep]

I found my info on http//myfwc.com under captive reared waterfowl To acquire and possess waterfowl, F.S.372.16 requires you to have a game farm permit($50.00), then look at 50 CFR 21.13 & 50 CFR 21.14 into proper marking of said waterfowl and don't forget your copy of  Form 3-186, notice of waterfowl sale or transfer from the person whom you are buying the federally protected species and keep it on file as long as you possess the birds or their eggs or offspring. I would venture to imagine that you would need to furnish a similar form to whomever you transferred the waterfowl to, be it a sale, gift, whatever. More than likely, this could apply to a fertile egg. Speaking of eggs, if you wish to experience waves of nausea, look up the fed usda gfc, and dept of ag regs for the list of compliance and permit requirements to legally sell a **** egg- And don't get me started on trying to sell one for meat, You will have an easier time butchering and selling your children! I'm not making this up! Until you walk in to your farm supply store and get pulled aside by a friend/salesperson in a small town where everyone knows each other, and they reluctantly inform you that your purchase of the little ducklings you've come to love was not exactly according to Hoyle, you've never experienced a swift kick in the groin, I AM NOT A LAWYER!!! I am some poor smuck on a few acres in the woods that is content to raise a few rabbits, ducks chickens, and veggies and be left to heck alone, Good luck with that!!! Honestly, spend the next 72 hours feverently looking for your niche( loophole ) and get back with me, LOL (Lots of Luck)

Read the entire page in context...

http://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/managed/waterfowl/nuisance/captive-reared/

50 CFR 21.13 & 50 CFR 21.14 deals with mallards and/or protected migratory waterfowl, the ducks you listed are neither of those, thus that entire section of law is null and void in your case...

It does appear you need a permit in FL, but there is no banding or other identification requirements listed under F.S.372.16 that I can see...

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...String=&URL=Ch0372/Sec16.htm&StatuteYear=2001

Form 3-186 again only applies to migratory waterfowl, the ducks you listed are not applicable as they are not migratory waterfowl...

Here is a list of the applicable migratory waterfowl...

https://www.fws.gov/birds/management/managed-species/migratory-bird-treaty-act-protected-species.php

 

[beachlegger]

Thank you for the response. I'm not trying to be contentious, but when it comes to dealing with the bureaucracy, best to err on the side of caution. It all depends on the interpretation of the law by the investigator. Don't forget that these agencies have legal depts. whose sole purpose is to make convictions and protect their people. On the link covering migratory bird treaty protected species if you scroll down to taxonomic listings you will find Anas Platyrhynchos- Mallard If its a rouen it's a Mallard- If it's a khaki campbell it's a Mallard. If it's a peking, its a Mallard, altho for some reason the peking is exempt. Basically, ALL domestic ducks except the muscovy are Mallards. 50 CFR 21.13 section b clearly states the requirements for physically marking your ducks. It even tells you under what conditions you can shoot your duck, should you be so inclined. I'm one of you, trying to wade thru the confusion and hopefully not go astray. I was once arrested and fined $110.00 for shining a flashlight in a Federal wildlife refuge- no gun, no game- just a 2 cell flashlight. My 2 companions were also charged and fined $110.00 each. $330.00 for an hours work, not too bad, eh? Or how about $100.00 fine for possessing a 12 Ga. rifled slug (single projectile) in a non-toxic shot (multiple pellets capable of being ingested) zone. I have assumed I was in compliance before, only to painfully find out later I was "wrong" How come some hatcheries mark their birds and some don't? I'm still working on that. Please keep up the research, perhaps we can get a clearly defined set of rules to comply with. I spent an hour at the FWC office in Tallahassee trying to get the definition of a pole net for fishing and left empty handed. They couldn't tell me what it was but they could tell me what it wasn't. If I had known then what I know now, I'm not so sure I would have bothered, but the die is cast and I have not only the ducks but a sizable (for me anyway) investment in pens, cages,flights etc following the regulations under FS 68A-6.004 standard caging requirements for captive wildlife and it has the requirements for MALLARDS- with land areas of 75 sf and 7.5 sf pond for up to 4 adult birds with an increase of 25% per each additional adult bird. No doubt too small an enclosure could be construed as animal cruelty, as it should be, but after working in an egg "factory" as a mechanic and seeing 4 laying hens spent their entire lives in a 2x2 cage, 750,000 birds at this one plant, I could no longer purchase store bought eggs with a clear conscientious, and acquired my own girls who have the run of the place. By the way, google up duck hatcheries in Florida and see what you come up with, maybe one of them could be helpful. Funky Chicken farm listed runners and cayugasxpekings and pekings but they are closed today. LOL, CYA BTW, they sell meat and eggs for pet food, not human consumption, and I'm sure there is a reason, what with out of state suppliers charging upwards of $1.00 an oz for duck breast filets. Please note: it's not my nature to be up at 5am posting stuff on the net unless it's a very valid concern.

 

[MeepBeep]

Thank you for the response. I'm not trying to be contentious, but when it comes to dealing with the bureaucracy, best to err on the side of caution. It all depends on the interpretation of the law by the investigator.

Actually what maters in the black and white text and interpretation by a judge that is generally are really good at reading the black and white text as written... I also personally choose not to follow imaginary make up laws or interpretations because LEO are ignorant to the written laws or for fear some LEO might make something up...

On the link covering migratory bird treaty protected species if you scroll down to taxonomic listings you will find Anas Platyrhynchos- Mallard If its a rouen it's a Mallard- If it's a khaki campbell it's a Mallard. If it's a peking, its a Mallard, altho for some reason the peking is exempt. Basically, ALL domestic ducks except the muscovy are Mallards.

Incorrect... As I stated 50 CFR 21.13 and 50 CFR 21.14 do not apply... The list I provided was for clarification, but for even more clarification, lets look at the black and white text of the law that protect migratory birds...

(b) Limitation on application to introduced species
(1) In general
This subchapter applies only to migratory bird species that are native to the United States or its territories.
(2) Native to the United States defined

(A) In general
Subject to subparagraph (B), in this subsection the term “native to the United States or its territories” means occurring in the United States or its territories as the result of natural biological or ecological processes.

(B) Treatment of introduced speciesFor purposes of paragraph
(1), a migratory bird species that occurs in the United States or its territories solely as a result of intentional or unintentional human-assisted introduction shall not be considered native to the United States or its territories unless—
(i) it was native to the United States or its territories and extant in 1918;
(ii) it was extirpated after 1918 throughout its range in the United States and its territories; and
(iii) after such extirpation, it was reintroduced in the United States or its territories as a part of a program carried out by a Federal agency.

Thus 'domestic' ducks are not Federally Protected Birds...

Anas platyrhynchos ≠ Anas platyrhynchos domesticus

50 CFR 21.13 section b clearly states the requirements for physically marking your ducks.

Yep, but since we are not talking about Mallards it's not applicable...

You can insist on apply the law to domestic duck breeds but the law clearly states it's not applicable to domestic duck breeds...

 

[beachlegger]

If you have the resources to fight a lengthy battle with the authority's, can I be your friend? What bothers me the most is since they are all domesticus, why do the regs keep pointing to exceptions for the peking? The leo's in my area consistently have an I.Q. that's below room temp but the scales are tilted in their favor. You are guilty until proven broke Case in point- a seat belt infraction is $125.00. Contest it and the judge rules against you,add $525.00 for court costs. An expensive gamble to procure justice. In all our debate. we still haven't figured out why some hatcheries mark their birds and some do not. Then there is the paranoia from my farm supply, a national chain with more money than I can imagine, and they have stopped selling ducklings. I know for a fact that a simple paperwork snafu can cost major money. I shall attempt to call some hatcheries and get their take on the subject. I'm hoping the outcome is positive because I would eventually like to sell some babies to other small farmers, plus I luv m'duks and have no desire to have a custody battle with a ham handed bureaucracy in the most over-regulated state in the cosmos. My dog got busted once for leaving the yard without a permit and the boarding fee was $75.00 a day plus the $125.00 fine. I had 3 days to pick him up or he got the chair, and I would be charged with cruelty to animals!!! Your not paranoid if they really are out to get you( your money) I shall post more when I find out more, in the meantime, I thank you for the intellectual stimulation. it's been most refreshing