Are all wood chips safe for a chicken run?

[Folly's place]

Here baled pine shavings are what goes into our coop after every clean out, and some are added in between total cleanings. There's ventilation, and nobody has had issues over it. We also use pine shavings in our brooders, and as horse bedding.
I would not use bagged cedar shavings, or black walnut wood chips. And hemp or whatever might be nice, but not available here.
Ridiculous claims aren't helpful, just sayin'.
Mary

 

[DavidReaves]

Keep your pine shavings below 140C (284F), don't aerosolize them chemically or by planing them and don't worry about it.

Or use something else. It will have some sort of risk too. But you might feel better about it because you are avoiding this minuscule risk.

I clipped out all the cites you gave from the quote, which, unlike the author on the "Featherbrain" blog gave some information about the research rather than the blog post which made an assertion, then a reference-- but did not actually cite the reference or give ACTUAL information from the reference. Your snippets of information confirmed that the supposed references were likely used to give her credibility, but actually didn't support her assertions. I did read the blog post but didn't find it convincing. Thank you for actually checking some of the references, since it saved me some time.

Finally, I will be surprised if any of the hens I keep make it past 7 years. I admit, chickens are somewhat for entertainment, but more so for education (for my granddaughter) and eggs. When the hens stop producing eggs, culling the old and integrating new hens are part of the educational process.

 

[HBN]

If pine is really soooooooo horribly dangerous it wouldn't be used for any animals, much less valuable ones like racehorses.

If pine were really so dangerous stores wouldn't sell it for fear of lawsuits.

I don’t think anyone is saying that upon contact with pine an animal will die. What they are saying that pine poses an increased health risk and there are other alternatives that do not. Everyone has their own risk tolerance for themselves and their animals. You seem to be constructing a false equivalence between “an increased risk” and “too dangerous for use” and using a straw man argument by not addressing the real issue and instead diverting attention to another. It has been scientifically proven that pine poses an increased risk. Just because people use pine doesn’t change that fact. For example, it is scientifically proven that tobacco, alcohol, and junk food pose an increased health risk. It doesn’t mean people don’t choose to use or consume those things. You’re talking apples and oranges.

This forum is usually an intelligent, supportive community where people come for advice and help. But, what really makes it special is that people generally communicate respectively and also respect that everyone is doing the best they can for the birds they have. This thread started off with someone asking for advice on appropriate bedding, advice which other members offered. The original poster could read the advice and then decide for themselves what to do - after learning of the increased risk they could still decide to use pine or they could chose not to, up to them. However, to say that pine does not pose an increased risk is just factually incorrect and none of the arguments you set forth address the established science. You’re just saying “tobacco can’t be bad for you because look at all the people and industries that support tobacco.” At this point, I don’t see any point in further dialogue as both of us have communicated our points. I wish you and your chickens a happy and healthy summer

 

[InterestingChickens]

Right, the commercial farmers for sure put the chickens first, which is why the average lifespan is 5 for commercial chickens.

Actually, if you are talking about how old the chickens would live for if they weren't culled, that isn't so relevant. Because these birds are bred for commercial levels of egg production, these types birds cannot sustain such high levels. These chickens on average stop laying in 3-4 years and except for the occasional bird, pass away at 6-8 years from reproductive issues. Sometimes laying eggs all the way up till they die.

Million-dollar racehorses are bedded on pine.

Chickens have much more delicate respiratory systems than horses - I will throw that in.

 

[saysfaa]

.... It has been scientifically proven that pine poses an increased risk....

Where has it been proven?

 

[raingarden]

Galvanizing is many orders of magnitude more toxic than pine or cedar. Are you going to stop using hardware cloth and chicken wire too?

 

[saysfaa]

....

And again I have lost interest in followingvthe research further.

...

Maybe I'll go a little further
Next.
She says "The chemicals responsible for causing liver stress and damage in animals are most likely the terpene hydrocarbons and aromatic compounds in pine (Miyamoto et al., 2008; Li et al., 2009).

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ve_and_recycle_bedding_for_laboratory_animals

"...We developed a ground-breaking system to improve fresh bedding and recycle used bedding by applying a soft hydrothermal process with high-temperature and high-pressure dry steam....

The purpose of the present study was to evaluate the chemical and physical properties of the [bedding]...

we have been maintaining mice for several months and analysing their growth and blood components. So far, the data have indicated few differ-
ences except for a suppression in the induction of P-450, a microsomal enzyme in liver, when compared with animals
maintained using fresh bedding (data will
be presented elsewhere)."

Soooooo.... that source doesn't focus on the effects of terpene hydrocarbons and aromatic compounds on liver stress and damage? But might give a few threads to pull - "suppression in the induction of P-450, a microsomal enzyme in liver,"

"P-450, a microsomal enzyme in the liver"

I don't know what that is. So... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytochrome_P450

Short version -

"CYP enzymes have been identified in all kingdoms of life: animals, plants, fungi, protists, bacteria, and archaea, as well as in viruses. ...[In humans] Cytochrome P450 enzymes are present in most tissues of the body, and play important roles in hormone synthesis and breakdown (including estrogen and testosterone synthesis and metabolism), cholesterol synthesis, and vitamin D metabolism. Cytochrome P450 enzymes also function to metabolize potentially toxic compounds, including drugs and products of endogenous metabolism such as bilirubin, principally in the liver....

CYPs are the major enzymes involved in drug metabolism, accounting for about 75% of the total metabolism.[23] Most drugs undergo deactivation by CYPs, either directly or by facilitated excretion from the body. Also, many substances are bioactivated by CYPs to form their active compounds like the antiplatelet drugclopidogrel and the opiate codeine...."

The liver seems to be processing. That isn't damage. The liver is supposed to process all kinds of things produced by the body and from outside the body.

The other threads to pull are the studies this author references. But first, Li.

 

[saysfaa]

Li et al., 2009
https://tohoku.pure.elsevier.com/en...ocessing-of-red-cedar-bedding-reduces-its-ind

"...We examined the effect of essential oil of red cedar (EORC), as well as the effect of bedding from which it had been removed, on [levels of P450s] in mice. EORC was obtained from liquid extracts of red cedar bedding by a soft-hydrothermal process and was administered orally to mice...

In particular, several volatile sesquiterpenes, naphthalene-derived aromatics and 4,4-dimethyl- 13α-androst-5-ene were decrease..."

I think this study might be relevant to what she is saying. If the chemicals are the same in pine as they are in red cedar and this study includes how much of these chemicals are in cedar... it tells us something if we can find how much is in pine.

My chemistry isn't good enough to tell if the two studies are talking about the same substances.

 

[saysfaa]

Back to the threads to pull from Miyamoto
Vesell https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17770428/

This study covered differences in the capacity of various beddings (red cedar, white pine, ponderosa pine, beech, birch, maple) to affect the amounts of drug-metabolizing enzymes in the livers of mice and rats which may partially explain divergent results of studies on drug-metabolizing enzymes. The presence of such inducing substances in the environment may influence the pharmacologic responsiveness of animals to a wide variety of drugs.

I didn't find access to more than the abstract unless I paid for it.

These comparisons might be relevant.

Next
Jones, 1977
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1258/002367777781005488

Lol. This is why it is important to look up references given.

"Owls died... which were fed mainly on laboratory mice...Analysis of the livers of these owls revealed the presence of dieldrin at concentrations of 7-30 p.p,m, [the mice] were also found to have dieldrin in their livers...the sawdust used at the suppliers was found to contain [high] concentrations of dieldrin...This sawdust came from a factory specialising in the manufacture of window and door frames, which are treated to protect the wood against woodworm infestation. One of the insecticides used for this purpose is dieldrin...."

 

[Silexian]

I would use mulch in a run. The bigger pieces will last longer and do a better job of keeping your fowl up out of the mud. Than shavings will. I buy mulch from a local sawmill. All hardwood, no coloring or insecticides added. The best thing is the price! A scoop that piles the full length of my 12 ft. X 7 ft. utility trailer. About 3 ft. high. Is $35!