are pain relievers ending in -caine toxic to chickens/birds? looking for solid proof either way.

[loveourbirds]

this is a quote from an email from "bluedogsonly" the vet who does the decrowing surgery.
"All medications have side effects. I know lidocaine, and assume bupivicaine etc is toxic to birds. I have read a little on meloxicam (a NSAID) for birds but haven't ever used it. I have used flunixine (banamine) and have luck with it but I mainly used it as a fever reducer. There really isn't much sensory innervation to bird skin, so the local anesthetics aren't that necessary in my opinion. I just sew them up it they need it.

Dr. James"

 

[micheleomal]

I have had 2 hens develop prolapsed vents. The vet put in a purse string suture on the first bird using lidocaine in the area. It did not cause any problem with the hen. I still had some lidocaine left when the second bird prolapsed and I gave her an injection in the prolapse since some of the other birds had nipped at it and I figured it must hurt like hell. This injection did not cause any problems either. Just adding to the confusion....

 

[seminolewind]

I have had 2 hens develop prolapsed vents. The vet put in a purse string suture on the first bird using lidocaine in the area. It did not cause any problem with the hen. I still had some lidocaine left when the second bird prolapsed and I gave her an injection in the prolapse since some of the other birds had nipped at it and I figured it must hurt like hell. This injection did not cause any problems either. Just adding to the confusion....

That is really cool that your vet could stitch like that. What a life saver.

 

[casportpony]

I have had 2 hens develop prolapsed vents. The vet put in a purse string suture on the first bird using lidocaine in the area. It did not cause any problem with the hen. I still had some lidocaine left when the second bird prolapsed and I gave her an injection in the prolapse since some of the other birds had nipped at it and I figured it must hurt like hell. This injection did not cause any problems either. Just adding to the confusion....

I believe the whole "caine" phobia stems from the experience of *one* BYC member that used an antibiotic ointment with caine in it and the rooster died. Later she wrote that in hindsight she wasn't positive that it was what killed him. Injectable penicillin has procaine in it, yet people use it and don't report any issues. I have an eye drop with some type of "caine" that I've used and Kwik-Stop Stypic Powder also has benzocaine and there is a picture of a parrot on the container.

 

[seminolewind]

I would love to see some documentation too.

 

[casportpony]

I found this:
http://www.thebirdclinic.com/Avian_Education/AAV_2004_Lectures/L13_Pain_and_Analdesia/

-Kathy

 

[casportpony]

And this:

http://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/surgery.html
"Why Not Local Anesthesia?

A bird requiring surgery will usually receive general anesthesia. There are several reasons for this. Many local anesthetic agents, such as lidocaine (usually erroneously called novocaine by lay people) that can numb an area, are toxic at doses that provide numbness! Lidocaine must be precisely dosed, and even so, the dose necessary to provide local anesthesia is greater than the toxic dose, in most cases (in small birds). It can be used in tame, large birds, if necessary. Another problem with using a local anesthetic agent is because restraining a bird awake is often very stressful. Signs of overdose with lidocaine may include excitement initially, seizures, depression, respiratory arrest, cardiovascular collapse and death."

 

[casportpony]

Here it is:
http://www.ivsajournals.com/pdf_3628_f14489575e73d63501ee820381ad1119.html

-Kathy

 

[CajunFeatherz]

I know this is an old thread, just wanted to add to it.

This study says that, despite the oft-repeated "lidocaine is dangerous" claim, these birds were given two separate and increased doses of lidocaine intravenously, and no adverse effects were noted.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25229315/

I myself have used lidocaine during surgery, those surgeries had varying degrees of results. There were deaths in some cases, but the deaths, I must say, probably would not have been attributed to lidocaine. From what I can gather, Benzocaine is relatively dangerous, and the "all procaine is a killer" rumor came from a better safe than sorry mentality.

 

[casportpony]

I know this is an old thread, just wanted to add to it.

This study says that, despite the oft-repeated "lidocaine is dangerous" claim, these birds were given two separate and increased doses of lidocaine intravenously, and no adverse effects were noted.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25229315/

I myself have used lidocaine during surgery, those surgeries had varying degrees of results. There were deaths in some cases, but the deaths, I must say, probably would not have been attributed to lidocaine. From what I can gather, Benzocaine is relatively dangerous, and the "all procaine is a killer" rumor came from a better safe than sorry mentality.

Excellent post! Here is a thread I started:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/fact-or-fiction-caine-and-poultry.1130757/

These are posts from someone that uses "caines"

• https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...aine-and-poultry.1130757/page-3#post-17703979
• https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...aine-and-poultry.1130757/page-3#post-17706003