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Attention Delaware Lovers: Please Read! NEW UPDATE POST #23

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by joletabey, Aug 16, 2010.

  1. joletabey

    joletabey SDWD!!!!

    Apr 9, 2009
    western NC
    First, please understand I am NOT reopening the argument about tail barring. However, since I am still relatively new to the Heritage Delaware, having only had them since November of '09, I thought I would contact the APA and some other Delaware breeders and see what they could tell me about the SOP definition, and what they felt was the correct coloration. A few other BYC people also contacted some experts. This is merely the report of the info collected.

    You can make of this info what you wish. One thing I did do, and will continue to check on to make sure there is follow up, is this- I contacted the head of the APA Standards Committee and told him about our "discussion" and my thoughts about the vagueness of the definition. He has promised to forward my concerns and emails, containing the info below, to his committee members.

    I was disappointed in how few people responded to my queries, but this is what I got.
    Two members of the APA board at the time the SOP was approved were gracious enough to respond.
    Danny Padgett, and I have permission to quote him, said there was NO Green Sheen in the tail barring of the roo or the tail black of the hen.

    The other member who responded ( I do not have permission YET to quote him) said the way he would interpret the standard on this issue was that "if the committee wanted the black to have green sheen they would have added that statement to the color description of the Delaware" and that "unless you are referred to another color section you have to assume that the color listed under the breed page is correct and it does not list a green sheen" which means NO Green Sheen.

    Another APA judge (another one I am waiting on permission to quote) said NO Green Sheen

    Sounds simple so far, huh? But here is where is gets hairy. The BREEDERS do not agree. And I am leaving BYC breeders out of this right now- we all know what we said. I am reporting what the non BYC breeders have said. I contacted a LOT of them, mostly on the yahoo Delaware group site. Unfortunately, very few have responded at this point.

    We already know that Bill Braden says NO Green Sheen and Janet Holtman (seriousbill) says YES, there IS Green Sheen. They were quoted in our discussion on the Delaware thread.

    Four other breeders that are not, as far as I know, on this website, responded to my emails. Two of them are members of the yahoo Delaware group, two are members of the yahoo Heritage chicken group. Of those four, three said YES there is Green Sheen and one said NO Green Sheen.

    One of the yes's in the breeder group is considered a foremost authority on Heritage breeds. Another is a name that has cropped up here in discussion. The NO green sheen is a long time breeder in Delaware.

    So this is what I have found out so far- there is still disagreement. Again, I have asked the APA to research and clarify this matter so we can all be on the same page. I understand this could impact breeding programs. Heck, it could impact mine- I may have to end up stewing my roo! But to me it is not important WHO is right, or if I am right. It is important that the right thing be done - and that right thing to me is that the APA contacts breeders and judges and gathers a lot of information before they clarify this issue.

    I would like to ask Delaware lovers on BYC to contact the APA (American Poultry Association) Standards Committee head, Mr. Walt Leonard. His email is on the APA site. Please urge him to research this thoroughly and to clarify the definition in a way that everyone can understand it, and all breeders can get on the same page. I think we have a chance to make an impact.
    Tell Mr. Leonard what you think, tell him what breeders you know have to say. He has been gracious and prompt in answering my emails and in promising the committee would look at the issue. But since breeders are in such disagreement, I think they need to look at the standard. Mr. Leonard told me it has not been questioned since it was put in there in 1952. There are no notes attached, nothing to indicate a problem before. But that still leaves the question of why there is such disagreement amongst breeders on the subject. Where did the original description come from?
    And one last thought - And this is just a thought out of my head, I have not been given any hints this could happen - it may be that the committee decides to allow two looks, or two strains, depending on the weight breeders carry with the APA in making those definitions. Somewhere, someone has to come up with proof that it is one way or the other, or has been both ways from the beginning. What did those first Delawares really look like?
    Sorry to be so long winded. Just reporting what I did, and what happened!

    Just to interject a little humor- I did find out how to wash a Delaware to diminish the green sheen- evidently vinegar takes it out!
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2010

  2. Rebel Rooster

    Rebel Rooster I Will Love! :)

    Jun 29, 2009
    Central SC
    My Coop
    Very interesting... [​IMG]
  3. speckledhen

    speckledhen Intentional Solitude Premium Member

    What did those first Delawares really look like?

    Therein lies the rub. I'm not sure many exist on planet earth today like the original Delawares. Some have been working toward that goal for years and are probably about there, but they aren't advertising their stock, like holding their cards close to the vest.​
  4. HaikuHeritageFarm

    HaikuHeritageFarm Songster

    Jul 7, 2010
    Anchorage, AK
    Jole, thank you for going to such lengths to research this! It is appreciated!
  5. Cetawin

    Cetawin Chicken Beader

    Mar 20, 2008
    NW Kentucky
    Thank you for that info Beth. One question to pose back to these individuals....who said "NO sheen"

    As the Delaware came from the barred rock and the new hampshire red, how did they breed OUT the green sheen of the black feathers?

    If you look at a NHR roo...the black feathers have a green sheen. If you look at a good breeder BR and pull the feather away from the body and examine the black there is a faint sheen as well.

    So, seems to me that with foundation birds used to create the breed having a sheen to their black feathers, that so shall the offspring breedings.

    Here are tons of pics of NHR roos....all have the beetle green sheen clearly noticed in their tail feathers in a picture


    Beth you have seen tons of pictures of Severus. Clearly he has the beetle green sheen in his black feathers....his mother is a black australorp his father an EE with no black markings whatsoever...yet Severus is nearly all black with a green sheen. It does not breed away completely...Penelope who has the same father but a SLW for a mother....no green sheen on that girls black feathers.

    Food for thought there Beth. [​IMG]
  6. Germaine_11.20

    Germaine_11.20 Songster

    Jun 6, 2009
    Beth, I think it will all come down to genetics. There has to be a genetic disposition that will occur from the crossing of the NHR and the Barred Rock.

    It can't just simply be a mish mash combo.
  7. jeremy

    jeremy CA Royal Blues

    Mar 23, 2008
    Oakland, CA
    Quote:This, above all, is the most important piece of this discussion. It's not about who's right and who's wrong, or who's birds are good stock and who's birds show faults. It's about figuring out what's right for the birds and then breeding responsibly towards the proposed standard of perfection. We just can't let Delawares die out simply because of bad breeding habits, this breed doesn't deserve that.

    Way to go Beth, [​IMG] Your efforts are very commendable and I hope to see a resolution to this question in the near future.

  8. jeremy

    jeremy CA Royal Blues

    Mar 23, 2008
    Oakland, CA
    I just thought of some more "food for thought" to add the conversation.
    A lot of folks are bringing up the Dels parentage, a Barred Rock roo X New Hampshire Red hen. You have to remember though that Delawares aren't the result of a direct cross of the two mentioned birds, but a sport (genetic mutation) of the pair.

    Who's to say what genes were passed down and what were not? That's all I'm sayin'! [​IMG]
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2010
  9. BWKatz

    BWKatz Songster

    May 22, 2010
    Although I don't have this breed, it's nice to see people trying to follow the rules and clarifying them for the benefit of others. [​IMG]
  10. joletabey

    joletabey SDWD!!!!

    Apr 9, 2009
    western NC
    Mr. Leonard had asked if he could forward my info to the ABA, and I have received info that the ABA standard for bantam Delawares says green sheen in the barring of the roo. NOT in the female main tail. Mr. Leonard also says the APA and ABA are working to unify their standards.

    Just one more piece of the pie!

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