ATTN. BREEDERS OF GAMEFOWL: Leghorn X Malay??

[Chris09]

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Yes, yes. You are correct. I misread. Apologies all around.

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Still with the umlaut?

Of course, I mind.

I know what Craig Russell wrought about the Rhode Island Red in that link that you posted but the Malay that was used in the breeding of the Rhode Island Red was a Pea Comb Malay not a Walnut Comb Malay like the Pheasant Malay was said to have.
Also Craig Russell wrights

Craig Russell :

The Pheasant Malay, also known as True Malay Game, Malay Pheasant Game and other names, is probably the Malay at the bottom of the Kraienkoppe pile

He was not certain that the Pheasant Malay was the Malay used in the Kraienköppe.

And yes still with the umlaut.


Chris​

 

[Gresh]

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Here, here! God forgive me for my errors....

 

[Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion]

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He was not certain that the Pheasant Malay was the Malay used in the Kraienköppe.

Seriously, can't you just let this go?

No?

Me either.

It's not that Craig Russell wasn't sure, it's that he didn't want to publicly state that he was sure at the time he wrote that.

 

[nicalandia]

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he is a persistent fellow, that can be a good trait sometimes, and not so good at times..

 

[nicalandia]

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Oh, I really hope you don't use an Old English or an American Game.

Mixing in any bird with a game attitude would, I think, be a huge breeding mistake and be a disservice to the Kraienkoppe breed. Of course, you can breed your chickens in any way you want, but I would hope that you would warn buyers that you've added game to the Kraienkoppes you sell because, as it sits, Kraienkoppe roosters are known for their easy going temperment toward humans.

I would never want to add any of your birds to my flock if you were to add Old English or American Game to yours. I enjoy being able to walk amongst the Kraienkoppes with ease as I do my duties. I can't do that with my dual purpose layer flock that has three dual purpose roosters running with it. All of my Kraienkoppes free range with each other, even the cocks and cockerels. I don't think that would be possible if an American Game were bred into the breed, but I could be wrong since I'm not really up on game birds ... I've just seen videos of them strapped to barrels, which I don't have to do with Kraienkoppes and don't want to have to do if they get too much game blood in them.

I might offer you eggs or a cock, but no one's laying right now, not to mention that I'm busier than all get out. All the hens are either still brooding chicks or transitioning either back into broodiness or hopefully transitioning to laying after a move. Oh, and a few are molting, also. All cocks are are spoken for here. Besides, my group all originally came from a hatchery, which is usually undesirable. I only managed one selected breeding with a trio this summer. The others were flock breedings.

Again, I think it would be a shame to muddle up the Kraienkoppes with game blood. I guess, mixing in one game bird, then back crossing only the gentlest roosters for 7 generations might be acceptable.

That is ridiculous. Game Cocks that are man aggressive are culls. They would be culled quicker than an aggressive cochin, or about any other breed, as they could do serious damage to their handler if they were aggressive.

I am with you here GotGame.. why? here in Nicaragua the "Sport" of cockfighting is still alive and is popular, we "Nicaraguans" put knives on this birds to try to kill the opponent, so you better believe that the birds these serious breeders are handling are not aggressive to them...

a friend of mine that was a handler lost a thumb after trying to pick a stagg after a fight.. the owner of that bird went ahead and culled him and all of his offsprings..

 

[Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion]

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He was not certain that the Pheasant Malay was the Malay used in the Kraienköppe.

Seriously, can't you just let this go?

No?

Me either.

It's not that Craig Russell wasn't sure, it's that he didn't want to publicly state that he was sure at the time he wrote that.

Okay, enough treating SPPA articles like they're fodder for goofy English Literature Analysis classes at university.

On page 67 of Christine Heinrichs book entitled, How to Raise Chickens, it is stated:

"Kraienkoppes [no umlaut] are the result of crossing Leghorns and the Pheasant Malays from the Dutch colonies in Indonesia."

True, she doesn't list the other breeds used in making the Kraienkoppe, but she states that it's "Pheasant" Malay rather definitively.

If one researches it just a little, they'll find that the Dutch seemed to have a bit of a crush on (possibly enamoured with) the Pheasant Malay in the 19th century and were crossing it with all sorts of breeds. It would stand to reason, then, in addition to other evidence, that the Pheasant Malay is a lot more likely to have been used to develop Kraienkoppes than any other Malay. Oh, sure, I could be wrong. And I'm sure there's someone out there to show me how wrong I am. But a quote from Christine Heinrichs carries weight. There's no way around that.

You can view the page online at books.google.com and possibly on Amazon if you can manage the proper search terms and those sites aren't playing difficult when you do the searching.

 

[GotGame]

Thats great that they are no relation to any game breeds. As I am done with this thread or any thread that has anything to do with kraiens, that means its highly unlikely I will run into you on any of the game threads.... GREAT

 

[DTchickens]

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If or when I get Kraienkoppe, I plan to cross them with Malay as a project. This however is not to make them more game, I can't recall if I ever said I wished to make them more game and if I did I retract that statement. I will however tell you why I do want to cross in the Malay blood.

I have decided to breed the Malay blood in simply because the birds here do not represent what the birds should be. I would like the breed birds accordingly with what they should be rather than what they are now.

Here the birds are so crossed up with other blood they throw single, pea, and walnut combs when it should be only walnut. They have white and yellow legs while they should have only yellow. They have too high set of a tail commonly, they have too small of a head, they're too small in size, they're too flighty, they look almost identical to an American gamecock when they have a pea comb; The hens throw wheaten coloration predominantly while they should be the wild-type BBred coloration, and who knows how many more faults I just haven't seen in them.

That shouldn't be. The Malay blood added will gentle the birds down to have a much calmer disposition, they should still be able to coexist well together and instead of them going nutts when only trying to take a photo of them as George McLaughlin said you should be able to walk out and pick them up without any fuss. They should follow you around like puppies as the Shamo's I have tend to do.

The Malay blood will increase their size, it will help in establishing the yellow legs, it will help suppress the single comb genes and hopefully increase the walnut combs. It will bring the tail set down to the level it should be, which is "slightly pronounced" as the Dutch standard calls for. It will increase the width of their head as the Dutch standard calls for a wide head while many appear to have a small head similar to Old English Game. The Malay blood will cause them to have small to non-existant wattles and earlobes as the Dutch standard calls for, while here they look like a Old English Game commonly.

And there are most likely more things, I just am not thinking of right now. I put that information on the Ultimatefowl wiki regarding the Kraienkoeppe breed. I researched them by the breed club history and other reputable websites translating it from Dutch to English as I have done other breeds. I even got a Kraienkoppe breeder from the Netherlands named Wanda Swart (hope I spelled her last name correctly) to look over my work and she even added to it.

I've discussed with George Mclaughlin, and hope to eventually discuss with Craig Russell. I've talked to Sandhill hatchery; and the other few people in the US that carry or carried the Kraienkoppe blood. I did so to learn what I would be working with, at which time I make plans. George McLaughlin has heard my plans, at which point he said he thinks I could do a lot of good to the breed.

You can disagree with my plans, you like your Kraienkoppe as is; that is fine. Breed them how you like them, but I want to breed them accordingly to what the Kraienkoppe breed really is.

I do not appreciate you acting like gamefowl are cruel birds while Kraienkoppe's are "God sends". I like both breeds, are gamefowl sometimes manfighters (people aggressive)? Yes, they are sometimes. I don't breed from them, and many others do not breed from them. It is characteristic people attach to the gamefowl, but the gamefowl are no more aggressive towards people than any other breed, if anything they are less aggressive.

Kraienkoppe are not so gentle either, ask George McLaughlin about the bird he told me about that I believe it was his daughters cuddled while the cockerel grew up. I believe he went to the soup pot after he began attacking people. Again, I say that I base my opinions on lots of research; I am not ignorant. You are welcome to do as you wish with your birds, and I will do as I wish with mine.

The Kraienkoppe have game blood in them, that is just a fact. They even have Sumatra way, way, way back. It is in the Belgium game blood as well as Shamo, and other game breeds. I do not view the Kraienkoppe as a game breed anymore, they are not a game breed anymore than a Rhode Island Red is. But adding Malay which I also really do not see as a game, as many no longer contain the game characteristics (that is, where they are aggressive towards other birds) is not going to do the Kraienkoppe any harm in my opinion.

And if you really feel that strongly, perhaps you'll be glad to know as well that I plan to work with another strain that will be strictly Kraienkoppe blood without the Malay infusion. However, the end results will still hopefully be the same though it will take longer. It is an old post, but I don't like my name to be passed around without what I consider correct information, as people do search these things otherwise I wouldn't have found this thread.


I would also like to clarify I do not believe you could recreate the Kraienkoppe breed, nor would I add American game or Old English. Those two breeds will do the exact opposite of what I want to accomplish in the Kraienkoppe breed, which is taking them back to their more "oriental" look and characteristics if I may say.

God bless,
Daniel.

ETA: I would also like to clarify, the Malay infusion will not be a 1/2 and 1/2 cross either; it will be graded to the degree I feel it needs to be for the selection of type and temperament. I haven't hidden anything really, people will know as well if they buy from me or not if the Malay has been added. I see no reason to be dishonest in selling birds.

And as for whether it is Pheasant-Malay or Malay is no matter to me; It seems to be pretty settled upon people that the Pheasant-Malay is just a Malay cross, hence the name "Pheasant-Malay", people actually believed it was a cross between a pheasant and Malay because the coloration looked similar to a pheasant (I believe, accordingly with the books I've referenced) but it bore striking similarities to the Malay blood. Either way when one looks at true Kraienkoppe from the "homeland" one cannot help but see the similarities in them to that of some Malay fowl we have within the US, which is why I use Malay, it is closer to type than the Shamo.

Old English, whether they are added again or not ARE in the Kraienkoppe's blood. Belgium Game contains Old English, Combattant Du Nord, and "Asian gamefowl lines" (also where the Sumatra blood comes in) still showing that they carry the Old English blood; was it added again which is why people mention the Old English blood? I don't know, but the people who know the birds given that they were created in their country say so, so that is who I believe. Again the Malay blood can be seen fairly well in the Brueges gamefowl, and especially that of its crosses Tirlemont and Liege Games which all three equal "Belgiam Games". Whether all three contributed to the Kraienkoppe or not, I can't answer.

 

[BrianSul]

they are still young about seven months . but they will bite anything that moves and they fly great very long leged . i'm really likeing them so far also very friendly breed . probley not the best but its a start these are my two Kraienkoppe pullets . they are defined oriental heritage breed i think ? any info or help is great thank you .

Nice looking birds. I'm breeding a similar type using a Pyle Leghorn rooster X Old English Game hens. I live on a farm in Ireland and the poultry free range so I breed them like this to have birds that are predator savvy and good flyers like the OEG but with increased egg laying ability from the Leghorn.

 

[MysteryChicken]

Here's a Red/Red Wheaten Malay Pullet I have. Her tail is very different then my Blue Wheaten Malay pullets.

My Blue Wheaten Malay pullets for example of differences.