Ayam Cemani Test Breeding

[Blue Eager]

Love this site. Here’s an entire thread dedicated to trap nests; https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/the-trap-nesting-thread.567357/

The trap on post #8 shows promise. Simple to make and perhaps less intimidating than others.

 

[Blue Eager]

Update; the first 4 chicks of the first in a series of test trials hatched yesterday. Two others have piped & the other 4 should begin hatching in 2 days.

 

[Blue Eager]

Unfortunately I have never had a higher incubation mortality rate. Out of the 10 fertile eggs only 6 chicks survived. 2 died after hatching and 2 eggs failed to hatch. The 2 chicks that didn’t make it looked identical to the 6 survivors, both of which favored the darker version. It is unclear if the darker chicks are attributed to the “Blues” and “Cream legbar”/ “Blue” BA cross, and the lighter version attributed to the one “Splash” hen in the trial. I believe this is a factor given the CL/BA cross both carry the plumage hues of the "Blue" Blue Ameraucana’s, by which my CL hen was bred to a Blue roo. Be that as it may. In conclusion;

Here are the photos of each chick. I think it is safe to say the roo in the first trial was an FM1, which was my theory before the trial. My theory for the next breeding trial is that the roo is an FM2. If I am correct a second time, then my stance with respect to this trial will be met with major reservations, quite possibly a complete waste of time. Why, because my theory for both is based solely on visual aspects of the breed. We shall see…

 

[Blue Eager]

I have decided to abandon this test trial for the following reasons;

1- Anyone who has spent countless hours familiarizing he or herself with this breed can visually arrive at a consensus as to which birds are either a FM1, FM2, or neither. Case in point; my first trial. My theory was that he was an FM1 and the trial proved that.
2- The amount of time it would take to test in excess of 2 males and 10 females is simply ridiculous.
3- The photos below is of a male that was born in February of this year and will take over as my breeder roo for the 2021 season. I don't believe a test trial is necessary to convince me he is an FM2. Using the Ayam Cemani's own "Code of Perfection" guidelines; this roo does not exhibit even the slightest sign of leakage.

 

[Blue Eager]

Here are the latest photos of the same Ayam Cemani Roo above & a few of the girls I selected out of 150+ from last years hatch. I am certainly looking forward to this years offspring.

 

[ExtendedBlack]

Both the Chinese Silkie and Ayam Cemani have been bred for thousands of years for their black skin/meat/face, recent genetic studies have confirm that they share the same mutation and give it a date of around 9000 years ago(well before the chicken domestication event)


Reference: The origin and evolution of fibromelanosis in domesticated chickens: Genomic comparison of Indonesian Cemani and Chinese Silkie breeds.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0173147


Fibromelanotic is an autosomal incomplete dominant mutation of the fm allele(Fm is the mutation and fm+ is the recessive wildtype counterpart), but here is the catch, for Fibromelanotic to be expressed at all it needs the help of the recessive sex linked dermal enhancer id+, This means that if you don't know this and you are performing a test cross of your Cemani stock with the wrong type of chicken your results will be inaccurate and may lead to the culling of a perfectly fine line.

Here is an example:

Ayam Cemani hen genetic make up:

E/E: Extended Black, black chick down
Fm/FM: Fibromelanotic
id+/- : Recessive Sex linked Dermal enhancer
W+/W+: Black Skin

Rhode Island Red rooster genetic make up:

eWh/eWh: Wheaten
fm+/fm+: non-fibromelanotic wildtype
Id/Id : Sex linked Dominant Dermal Inhibito(will inhibit any and all dermal melanin expression)
w/w: Recessive yellow skin


The result of such cross will yield F1s with White Skin, red combs and white undersole with dark shanks(Extended black allows for epidermal melanin to express)

E/eWh: Black Chick down
Fm/fm+: Heterozygous Fibromelanotic
Id/- for females and Id/id+ males
W+/w: White skin

So going by this cross you would be baffled to see that 100% of the chicks that hatched have white clear skin?

Now do the reciprocal cross(Cemani Roo over RIR hen) and you will get Sex links(pullets will hatch with black skin and cockerels will hatch with white clear skin)


Ayam Cemani Rooster genetic make up:

E/E: Extended Black, black chick down
Fm/FM: Fibromelanotic
id+/id+ : Recessive Sex linked Dermal enhancer
W+/W+: White Skin

Rhode Island Red hen genetic make up:

eWh/eWh: Wheaten
fm+/fm+: non-fibromelanotic wildtype
Id/- : Sex linked Dominant Dermal Inhibito(will inhibit any and all dermal melanin expression)
w/w: Recessive yellow skin

E/eWh: Black Chick down
Fm/fm+: Heterozygous Fibromelanotic
id+/- for females and Id/id+ males
W+/w: White Skin for males and Black Skin for females.

So even if you had pure Ayam Cemani(homozygous for the Fibromelanotic mutation) if you test it with the wrong type of hens or roosters your result will be inaccurate and I just believe that is unacceptable for someone not to mention that when writing about that on that page.

So what are acceptable breeds? Breeds with slate or willow shanks, don't use extended black birds(solid black birds) as they may have slate colored shanks but that is due to epidermal melanin and they may very well be sex linked Id.

@nicalandia , I can thoroughly appreciate this explanation. But my question, to complete the explanation, can you put this in terms of what they refer to as FM1 and FM2?
And what the outcome of such a test would produce, an FM1 Cemani vs an FM 2 cemani?
I think everyone is very curious as to what to look for in terms of identifying FM2 birds, to use for further breeding, and how to avoid or isolation their FM1 birds from the flock. Thank you in advance.

 

[Rjsoutherngirl]

Oh my while I may not understand all the scientific language I absolutely love reading and learning from those who do. My question is how did the test turn out.

Also, I'm starting AC flock. Can you give me a clear answer on exactly what characteristics they should have to be bred and which ones they shouldn't have. Ie I have 2 with 1 white toe nail. Is that trait a cull trait?

I also have 4 out of 5 that have a grayish look to them only 1 turned out solid black.

I want to make sure I build a good flock

 

[Bethrohl]

I had high hopes given there appeared to be dedicated AC breeders on this site that someone would chime in although this does not seem to be the case. Having said that I discussed the possibilities of the viability of this test with my son whom has a Masters in Chemistry which stated it would appear to make sense although there isn’t documentation on the site that developed this test as to scientific evidence mapping the dominant gene described as “Fm”. So, I have decided to take on this challenge to determine whether or not the test is viable.

I will begin by breeding my fibro roos with my non fibro Blue Ameraucana hens for the simple reason they are much easier to monitor & my Blue Ameraucana roo isn't of appropriate age to breed. He will not be ready until the spring of 2021. So I would like to pose another question if I may; how long does it take until the eggs of a hen run their course from one roo so that I am certain all of her eggs are fertilized from the next roo she is breed to?

Hello, I have been on so many pages asking the same questions with zero response, either no one knows or no one is willing to share information. Please let me know how this went and what you learned. Thank you

 

[NatJ]

Hello, I have been on so many pages asking the same questions with zero response, either no one knows or no one is willing to share information. Please let me know how this went and what you learned. Thank you

I thought all the answers were in this thread somewhere, if you read all the way through it.

If not, please say which particular bit you were asking about, because I see several points in the part you quoted. I can answer some of them, and maybe point you toward answers for the bits I don't personally know.

 

[CrazyChickLady64]

I have some AC 6 hens and a roo. I am in no way doing what you are. I would recommend that after you are sure your hens are fertilized put them each separate so you know which eggs belong to which hen.