Ayam Cemani

[Chambertin]

I know for a fact that I have the blackest, purest genetically sound chickens. I hope the picture below dispels any doubts.

Allyn, you are truely unique.
Reading your posts I never know what to think about who you are, where you come from or anything.
Keep the mystery coming

 

[dutchbunny83]

I know for a fact that I have the blackest, purest genetically sound chickens. I hope the picture below dispels any doubts.

Hahaha

 

[dvang3]

Here are some update pictures of the chick with white. There 10 days old today. All the eggs looked the same the pink colored eggs same size within a few grams. I also got them from Toni Marie off ebay the first listing of hers. Let me know what you guys think!!

Congrats on the win! You definitely hatched out 2 beautiful fibro-melanistic chicks. However, the other two are not.

I myself breed a variety of fibro-melanistic birds. There are varying degrees of hyper-pigmentation within the birds I have. From what I have studied and read from research papers, fibro-melanosis acts as a co-dominant gene. With that being said, somewhere down the line a white skinned bird was probably incorporated. I am not saying Toni did it, it could have been before her. HOWEVER, incorporating a white skinned bird does not kill the breed. If anything it offered vigor and virility to the breed. It is not realistic to raise pure breeds forever due to the limited gene diversity here in the U.S. Later on, there has to be new gene pools incorporated anyways.

 

[dvang3]

That is my Cemani type rooster with 2 white fibro-melanistic hens.

 

[Tara Black]

So I was reading up on chicken genetics and found this. I'm just going to put this here for now.

 

[dutchbunny83]

So I was reading up on chicken genetics and found this. I'm just going to put this here for now.

From what I understand Cemani means black in the language of Indonesia (I realize that sounds totally ignorant, but just realized I don't know what language is spoken in Indonesia...)
It looks like from the genetics you can have a Cemani egg hatch out not as pure black, but by breed standards it wouldn't be considered an Ayam Cemani unless pure black. I've even read that if there is any mulberry in the comb and wattles it isn't pure black either, is that correct?
It must take several generations of continually culling and only keeping the blackest of the black to get the majority of the offspring to hatch this way I am assuming.
Very pretty birds!

 

[Allyn]

First, I have heard so many good things about Toni and her style. That being said it seems very strange to have the white come out like that. I have hatched maybe 30 Cemani Lite chicks. I call them that because they are not the pure black that you can get in Indonesia. Mine are similar to Greenfire. I have never seen the white like that, not even close. Also saying the white is a good thing makes no sense to me. We should be breeding to a specific goal. These chickens are really quite common in Indonesia and you see them in every bird market. They also are a wild bird that the people hunt so I can't imagine there would be a lack of genetic diversity within the black coloring.
Truly I believe we need to find a real expert in the field of genetics. Is this a real breed? What really is the standard ?
is this an aberration that sometimes produces pure black and sometimes not? For me and just for me I would be very upset if I paid so much money for a pure black chicken and got the white like that.

 

[Oldhound]

Yes you will hear many good things about Toni Marie Astin from those of us who love her and know her to be a person of integrity. There is another thread here on BYC re the Blackest ones where it is stated that the Cemani is a color not an isolated breed, bred for type. There is a breed Standard in Holland I believe but no Standard here in the U S of A. . If you re read Toni Maries post I think she said her Cemani came from Landrace stock. I have also read that Cemani can "Pop Up" out of Ayam Kedu stock. There is a link on Feathersite that is very interesting, relating one mans visit to Indonesia and his opinions about the breed. It has been my experience after a lifetime of breeding different species of animals that nothing breeds 100% true with NO Faults or Variations. A person expecting perfection from every egg or other birth is in for disappointment. JMO. Bill Marcy

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

First, I have heard so many good things about Toni and her style. That being said it seems very strange to have the white come out like that. I have hatched maybe 30 Cemani Lite chicks. I call them that because they are not the pure black that you can get in Indonesia. Mine are similar to Greenfire. I have never seen the white like that, not even close. Also saying the white is a good thing makes no sense to me. We should be breeding to a specific goal. These chickens are really quite common in Indonesia and you see them in every bird market. They also are a wild bird that the people hunt so I can't imagine there would be a lack of genetic diversity within the black coloring.
Truly I believe we need to find a real expert in the field of genetics. Is this a real breed? What really is the standard ?
is this an aberration that sometimes produces pure black and sometimes not? For me and just for me I would be very upset if I paid so much money for a pure black chicken and got the white like that.

birds from there no, here in the USA, there is only 2-3 people seriously breeding them so, of course yes genetic diversity is a critical issue.
anyone who has any time in breeding knows how important this is.
there is no standard for the breed here since there virtually are none in the US to amount to anything, but all the breed is is a chicken with fibro melanistic genes in it. The all black ones are called cemani. Svart honas, just a cemani from Europe.... You can take a black leg horn, add 2 doses of fibro to it and you'd never know what it really was... Yes, it is a breed , but it's a gene that makes it. 1 copy fibro, lighter skin, 2 copies dark skin, 2 copies and gypsy face added pure jet black.

only having 1 copy does not make it NOT the breed... and again , any black bird can hatch with white in it as chicks. It will molt away and be solid black as it matures, cemani or not. Most all extended black chicks hatch looking like a penguin but change to black with age. My d'anver, phoenix, ohiki, and sumatras all hatch this way, so why is it such a shocker that some cemani can hatch that way. Fibro melanisim has nothing to do with feather color. Solid white birds can be fibro too as can any other color.
and again, the price was at $50 by the seller.. they cant help what ebay buyers ran it up too... if you didn't want to pay $1400 for eggs, don't bid that. Buy birds instead.... then again look at greenfire's they have yearling pairs for sell for yall at $5000 pr... yes that's 3 zeros not a type o.
so even if the others did turn out to be duds, these people are WAY ahead of the game of price compared to that ,with the other chicks that hatched.
Toni Marie is a genetics expert, more so than anyone on this forum. She has based the majority of her adult life doing this stuff. So I'd take her advice....

 

[Allyn]

Just so I understand. Because there are a few breeders breeding in United States there is not a standard for the bird? There is a standard for this bird in the country that developed it. Some may feel confident enough to define what the bird is and why. Some may feel confident enough to understand other people's genetic knowledge and determine who has the most knowledge? There is always the possibility that anything could happen the question is one of probability. We bird people are a strange lot that I can say for sure, what may well work in a song may will not work in a bird.