Ayam Cemani

[Wolf-Kim]

Does any BYCer have this breed or at least know anyone who has this breed?

Also, what color eggs do these lay?

I'm just curious, if any of our 12,000+ members have them.

Thanks
-Kim

 

[blackbirds13]

Why should anyone have to prove to the satisfaction of a few folks here on BYC that their birds are what they say they are? His sales are on a different auction site and despite your flagging it they have chosen to let it run. Y'all are basically accusing this guy of fraud and that he is perpetuating something unethical and maybe even illegal just because you don't like his photos and regardless of how right or wrong this reads very nasty. This is coming off as very self-righteous and self-important. None of us have perfect birds and to claim that any of you could know every breeder of this or most breeds is really just silly. I too have chicks on order from Wolfwhyte but that's because those I can afford, regardless of what anyone would say of the quality and no one seems to know about him. Folks can sell and buy the chickens they want. These birds have been here for a bit before GFF got them and I'm sure Toni-Marie is not the only other person who has them. This is really uncomfortable to read. You have each made your point but he is entitled to not have to prove anything to any of you- you are not the BYC chicken police. Very sad

 

[stoneunhenged]

The parent birds shown in the video produced their first chick today.

 

[chrisf]

Toni-Marie has been breeding pures for years now.......................http://countrywhatnotgardens.com/bantamlongtails/cemani.html

 

[stoneunhenged]

Having been accused by Tingle of stealing a picture of his hand holding his cemani chick and lying about its origins, fellow BYCers may enjoy this pic I took this morning:



And here's another pic I took on November 28, 2012, at the same time as the picture in question showing the infamous "Tingle hand":




And in other news, I'm really enjoying the cemani breed. A few surprises. We've had a few freezing nights, and our birds stay outdoors with no heat and no insulated shelter. The cemani roost on a pole that is open to the elements, and they have shown no ill effects despite their tropical origins. Also, I'm really impressed with the egg size. The hens are medium-sized birds but produce an egg that is large as eggs produced by some heavier large fowl breeds. I have seen no signs of human aggression although of course the roosters will post up to other roosters in neigboring pens.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

OK I see that some people need to be educated when it comes to the Cemoni. This is Toni Marie. For the sake of knowing everyone Yes you can get a acassional white skin chick(about 5%). NO it does not mean they are mixed or cross with what ever.. And yes they can and do have white on them as chicks like every other black bird. Yes you can get diff degrees of skin color. You can get anything from a purpleish color, to black,and to grey like. The best Quality ones like the guy at cemoni farms says those are the blackest black ones. he also has regular quality witch is the ones I have but I also have the best quality ones he talks about. I have in know way sold anything crossed. They are " as is" when I got them. They are a land race fowl and are not breed for anything else but meat color.There fore the diff sizes. The blackest of black ones have been breed for many generations. So if anyone has any other questions you can ask me. Everyone in the Poultry world can tell you I have always breed and helped many many people with birds and most of the time I never even charged for them. So is there anything you want to talk to me about? Im here. I think people should know everything about the birds..Most people have the misconception that chicks are all black..NOT some like I said are black and white chick down and even have A few Juvie white feathers as chicks but molt it out by adulthood. Now that they are here to stay us Americans will do all kinds of things to them to Americanize them..Thats to bad. Like I was saying before they are a land race fowl. I have had these birds for about 6 years now. I do try to breed from only the darkest birds but you will get a degree of darkness... If you want to know something just ask. Many thanks. Toni-Marie. PS Sunvally the chicks in the pic are tipical Cemoni chicks although most seem to be darker..

Folks, I was shocked to see all this.... Most every black fowl in the world will hatch black and white. I get this same mess every time a new person buys Sumatra eggs from me, they all hatch black and white, and I have to educate the buyers on genetics behind extended black breeds.
Toni Marie is a very dear friend of mine, and I have seen her birds a dozen times personally.
She's one of the most respected breeders of rare fowl in the world and has written books for educating people on stuff like this. She operates numerous forums on various breeds and genetics, and only trys to help folks. She virtually never sells anything, rather gives them away to help others.
The breeds I'm seeing everyone GUESS at what may be in these birds, well take it from me, she don't even have them on her property, so try again.
All her birds are under stick pen selection and never moved around where a mix breeding could contaminate the gene pool.
She has worked with the cemani longer than any one else in the country. Green fire and all them are just lagging behind, yet try to claim to be the only source. She has had them for many many years just as a personal breed in her collection.
Her birds are pure, but very very rare. So any time you get into new breeds, it's often a learning experience for you... Well she's the teacher. Listen to what she has to say, you may end up learning something. I promise you she knows more about them than anyone else on the forum. And from what I have been reading, the hatch rates for the eggs sound great. You have to remember any time eggs get shipped, we as sellers have no control over it. We can pack to the best of our ability, but they PO will do all sorts of things to them. That's the risk you take when buying eggs, just remember that in general. Also I have seen prices thrown around here too, remember, yall bid that, she listed them for $50 I think?? Where they go from there is in the buyers hands, she has no control over that.
Sounds like she has done all she can on her end, even insured them for everyone sounds like?
Try to listen to what she says. Give the birds time to mature, you'll be shocked at the changes they go threw, then as they mature look at what you ended up with...

Personally, I have nothing gained or lost here, but I know the breeder, the birds, and her reputation and breeding skills.... Think it's safe to say, she knows what she is talking about....
Learn all you can about the breed you now own, and enjoy them, I personally think once they grow out, you're going to really like what you in fact have

 

[Oldhound]

Julia Keeling posted the Dutch Standard for Ayam Cemani on FB. This is an interpretation by the Dutch. I have no way of knowing how close this comes to Indonesian requirements. I sincerely hope that this Forum provides a learning experience.

: Indonesia
Classification: Rare
Egg Colour: White or tinted
The Cemani fowl originates from the Indonesian archipelago. In 1998, the first examples came to the Netherlands, and in 2008 to Britain. There is some variety in type, but most look rather gamey, and all have single combs. The main characteristic of the breed is the intense black feather colour in combination with black skin colour, including face, earlobe and comb. Black skinned fowl are valued in many Asian countries for eating in ceremonial traditions.

General Characteristics: male
Type and Carriage: General appearance alert and quite gamey.
Body: medium sized, slim, firm and muscular, wings held strongly to body. Alert bearing
Breast: fairly broad, full and firm.
Back: back medium length, sloping from the neck; saddle hackle rather short.
Wings: long, large and strong, held slightly high at the shoulders. held tight to the body, and not resting on the back. Shoulders – wide and firm.
Tail: held a little high; moderate spread with narrow, medium length sickles. Rump - moderately developed. Parson’s Nose small, and firm, little fluff.
Head: of medium size. Face – black and smooth. wattles medium, small black earlobes, eyes large and full of expression, dark brown to black with black pupils. Comb – single, usually with five points, black. Back of comb not following down the line of the neck. Beak – firm, well curved, black.
Neck: long and firm; the neck hackle reaching to the shoulders.
Legs and Feet: Thighs medium, powerful, set well apart, good bend of hock. Straight parallel medium length shanks - black. Four toes long, strong and well spread, with prop toe standing well back and firm on the ground – black. Well-developed spurs in mature male birds
Plumage: Feathers quite short and close-fitting
Handling: Firm and muscular.
Female
The general characteristics are similar to those of the male, allowing for natural sexual differences. The back line of the hen can be less angled, the face is often a more intensive black.
Colour
Plumage – Black. Green sheen is not so obvious as in some black breeds. Skin, face, comb and legs – Black.
Weights
Male 1.8–2kg (approx 4–4½lbs)
Female 1.2-1.5kg (approx 2¾-3½lbs)
Ring Sizes: Cock 18mm (E18) Hen 16mm (D16)
Scale of Points
Feather Colour 20
Skin Colour 30
Type 15
Legs and feet 10
Head 10
Condition 15
Serious defects
Carriage too horizontal. Tail carriage too high or too low. Wings hanging down. Legs too short. Too little black pigment in the skin colour.

 

[Oldhound]

I do not know if English is your first language, but Neither I nor anyone else is trying to put words in your mouth.
If you would take the time to carefully read my comments , you would see that I posted the Written Dutch Standard because it is the only written one that I am aware of . I do not know of any other way to make the American and Worldwide public aware of one interpretation of the so called ideal Ayam Cemani. If this written description does not agree with the way Indonesians want the Cemani to look like , Say So, and tell us what the mistakes are. Just saying there is an ideal Indonesian Ideal and not telling us what it is serves no purpose. I feel that your frustration and apparent anger is misplaced. You say we are Wrong but you do not say what is Right .
There is no need for conflict over this issue. There is I think a lot of misunderstanding.

 

[boykin2010]

There is currently a group working on getting a standard approved for European use. I think it is for the European rare breed society and I assume American's will follow their standard. When I see it is published I will post it here or at least post a link to the site for those of you who are looking for a real standard instead of just knowing they are supposed to be "all black, all black, all black," I have seen the proposed standard and for anyone interested, the proposed standard for egg color is white or slightly tinted.

Ayam Cemanis, Svart Hona, and pretty much all other fibromelanistic breeds are extremely new to the US and to expect every bird that hatches to be an exemplary specimen is ridiculous. Breeders are working very hard and one day we will achieve and produce the quality that so many people are wanting. Even according to Indonesian breeders just because one breeds two best quality (black all over) birds together, does not mean their offspring will be the same quality. I believe I read somewhere where an experienced breeder said that breeding two best quality birds together will only produce 5-10% of the offspring being all black? This breed is challenging - that's for sure. But I don't think that is a reason to bash other breeders who are truly trying their best to improve the breed LEGALLY. Importing from Indonesia is illegal so one cannot just spend thousands upon thousands and import a whole flock of perfect birds. We will work with what we can obtain legally and years from now fibromelanistic birds in America will be adhering to the standards being created not just for color but also for type.

 

[Randy2010]

Same thing I saw

But don't worry, the new American standard will allow for red combs and wattles.

I have to ask, have you seen an American standard yet? I don't know why you have to keep bashing the ones of us that do have these birds that may have some red in their combs and wattles. It's not like we can just imports these birds like we would like to. You keep wanting to complain about the birds that are in the US, but are you doing anything to get any better bloodlines into the US? Like it has been said over and over, there are breeders in the US that are working our butts off to improve what bloodlines that are here. I for one am going to work my butt off to get them to where they need to be, I plan on culling the heck out of mine this year and only keep the blackish ones and breed them back to the blackish one, and then do it all over again and again. It may take a few years and then again it may longer, but we are trying to do the best that we can with what bloodlines that are here. Yes there will be some people in the US that will just get them to make fast buck or two, but people just need to do their homework and find the breeders that are doing their jobs to improve them. But until better bloodlines can be brought in, we have to work with what we have. And these people that want to keep complaining about the birds here, need to import them since they think it is so easy and cheap and see where it gets them.