Ayam Cemani

[MarBar]

If you want single comb large fowl fibromelanotic chicks, I have some available.
I call them *DipsyGoths* and have them in black, splash, and blue. They are not related to Cemani or Swart Honas.




https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...otic-single-comb-large-fowl-chicks-dipsygoths

I've also got pea comb Fm's that lay a bluegreen egg.

Interesting looking birds but I'm hoping for the Cemani and not a mix. While I find it interesting to think of creating a blue egg laying Cemani, I myself am not interested in purchasing mixed birds only as purebred as I can get.

Quote:
Interesting point of view but it did not really answer my question. I think I saw there might be 1 European standard but I have not seen any from Indonesia and have read there is not one. If there is a standard that is based in the region they originate that would be helpful in answering my question. I have not read this entire thread, I just had what I thought was a pretty straight forward question. What do you mean no one seems to have Ayam Cemani in the US? What is lacking? Why and how do you come about your opinion on the birds here? I will have to read this thread when I get time.

 

[Chambertin]

Read this thread, there are translated standards from Indonesian sites, an Indonesian farmer and plenty of other references out there.
All you have to do is search and read.

The pure black is lacking. Most of the "Cemani" breeds have red in the visible flesh, or are born with white patches. Both are evidence of a deficient fibro-melanistic gene and or mixing with other breeds.
I'm sure those breeders have some amazing chickens but no matter what was taken out of Europe it doesnt meet the basic farmer standard in the native country of the name.
The birds may be magnificent, but they don't deserve a name if they arent that bird.

Honestly the reason why these birds are so expensive and everyone wants to have a "new" standard is that most people don't read and might blow money before they do (and many have)
Just do a basic search for Ayam Cemani and you will learn a lot. (Provided this expensive bird is worth 20 to 30 minutes of reading....)

There are literally hundreds of "all black" breeds out there and unless you do some real checking its very likely that its not an Ayam Cemani

Some people don't like my broken record on this topic, but its the simple truth and anyone who has experimented with Asian fibro-melanistic breeds would come to the same conclusion.
Try to preserve the unique characteristics of a name instead of using it to jump the price of an inferior bird.
Even if it was a different breed, at least carry the minimum traits when you pass it off as something else...

 

[Penny Hen]

Read this thread, there are translated standards from Indonesian sites, an Indonesian farmer and plenty of other references out there.
All you have to do is search and read.

The pure black is lacking. Most of the "Cemani" breeds have red in the visible flesh, or are born with white patches. Both are evidence of a deficient fibro-melanistic gene and or mixing with other breeds.
I'm sure those breeders have some amazing chickens but no matter what was taken out of Europe it doesnt meet the basic farmer standard in the native country of the name.
The birds may be magnificent, but they don't deserve a name if they arent that bird.

Honestly the reason why these birds are so expensive and everyone wants to have a "new" standard is that most people don't read and might blow money before they do (and many have)
Just do a basic search for Ayam Cemani and you will learn a lot. (Provided this expensive bird is worth 20 to 30 minutes of reading....)

There are literally hundreds of "all black" breeds out there and unless you do some real checking its very likely that its not an Ayam Cemani

Some people don't like my broken record on this topic, but its the simple truth and anyone who has experimented with Asian fibro-melanistic breeds would come to the same conclusion.
Try to preserve the unique characteristics of a name instead of using it to jump the price of an inferior bird.
Even if it was a different breed, at least carry the minimum traits when you pass it off as something else...

I understand what you mean in general. But I would ask you specifically if you consider Greenfire Farms's Ayam Cemani inferior stock. They imported from Indonesia. The pictures that are posted are of an all jet black chicken, skin and bones. They are asking $4999 for a juvenile pair. If as you say that no one else here in the U.S. has first class jet black stock then I can understand this price. Can't afford it but understand it. For those of us that $5000 for two chickens is way out of our range we will just have to settle for raising other fibromelanistic breeds (Silkie, Huastec, etc...) or create a composite FM breed from all the FM gene chickens that are available here. That may satisfy some of the FM envy that we have for the 10 - 20 years it is going to take to get the numbers up enough to bring the price down into a normal range.

 

[Cemani Farm]

This problem is not in US / UK only, but there is in Indonesia also.
A Bad breeders have crossed the ayam cemani and sell them as PURE ayam cemani.

Ayam cemani have very strong gene. when you crossing them you will found result up to 70% look like ayam cemani by physically. they result also have black feather and leg, and some time you get the black skin too.

and the Ayam Cemanis have big demand in every where.
selling them with cheap price is very easy, People will buy without thinking anything.

a good way to know how pure they are is just open the mouth !!!...
if you did not found anything but BLACK, that is the Best Quality and i can say that is PURE Ayam Cemani.

You can find the ayam cemani here start from $ 50.- to $ 100.000.- depending to the quality and how much buyer want to pay.
as we know the ayam cemani is often time used for medicine.

 

[Cemani Farm]

Here is some of my results when i crossing the Ayam Cemani.

 

[MarBar]

I understand what you mean in general. But I would ask you specifically if you consider Greenfire Farms's Ayam Cemani inferior stock. They imported from Indonesia. The pictures that are posted are of an all jet black chicken, skin and bones. They are asking $4999 for a juvenile pair. If as you say that no one else here in the U.S. has first class jet black stock then I can understand this price. Can't afford it but understand it. For those of us that $5000 for two chickens is way out of our range we will just have to settle for raising other fibromelanistic breeds (Silkie, Huastec, etc...) or create a composite FM breed from all the FM gene chickens that are available here. That may satisfy some of the FM envy that we have for the 10 - 20 years it is going to take to get the numbers up enough to bring the price down into a normal range.

I believe he is including GFF's $2500 bird as not being a 'true' Cemani. The photos on the web do show some red in the wattles and having read some of this thread now that is one of his bones of contention with what we have here in the states.

Chamberlin - While I understand the point of view I believe it is a mute point here. We cannot import birds from Indonesia and parts East so it would be foolish to expect our birds to be as they are in their native land exactly but maybe more in tune with their place of origin in Europe. When, if ever the ban is dropped then maybe the points made in your argument could be adhered to but I think the term Ayam Cemani is probably going to stick. Being imported from Europe where they have a standard would be where we are and from what there is to work from. I think the problem here will be in reaching a standard. I think it will be hard for Greenfire Farms Cemani owners to claim sole claim to any standard as there are a more than just that stock in the US. It will be interesting to see what happens and if there can be any consensus on what a Cemani should be when it comes to some of the finer points going forward.
Cream, white or brown eggs. There is Greenfire, Toni-Marie and Wolfwhyte and who knows who else out there. Very interesting. I will have to subscribe.

 

[Chambertin]

It would also be very foolish to call someone American Indian when they have white skin, were born in China, speak Japanese and were raised in Singapore...

The problem is that there's ton of money hanging in pockets and those people wont check the facts about what they are buying.

If you're going to use an existing name, the qualify for the standard of that name.
If you want to make something new then change the name.
Then again American Indians are called Indian because people were too excited to check the facts, and when facts came out no one cared about the truth.

Have fun living in the 1400's

EDIT: The video speaks for itself, as I said many times anyone who has ever had experience with fibro-melanistic birds will get the exact same results. Those birds are not and were never Ayam Cemani so should not be sold as such.
Ayam Kedu, Svart Hona, Ayam Cemoni, Ayam Cemany, Aeam Creamy, whatever name you want, but not Ayam Cemani

EDIT 2: The other and major reason I keep sticking in people's sides is that as a breeder and experimenter with fibro-melanistic birds I want the tradition and effort of keeping these lines black to be preserved and even if we cant get them "now" I don't want the name and breed to be ruined as trade restrictions are removed because there were some over zealous and over spending fools who wanted the next best thing, but really didn't care to learn about the properties of the bird.

With fibro-melanistic birds its not just a matter of culling what you see and keeping what you think is good you really have to keep track for generations to maximize the characteristic because even some mild intermixing of outside breeds will result in very serious changes through the generations. Think about the person who has had the line for more than 7 years and still cant get all black clutches of chicks. That is NOT normal for solid fibro-melanistic birds.
The only exception being those rare white plumage but still all black skinned (no red wattles) birds from China

I think its kinda useless to preach the the me-me-me credit card culture, but try to respect the effort that went into getting the birds to the point that makes them so attractive in the first place.
There are many interesting black birds out there, and they aren't all that hard to come by. Don't ruin the name and breed of one of the most unique just because you read about it in the morning news.

Again, that's my piece
Ignore it as you will.

 

[Dipsy Doodle Doo]

I just love watching this little video.
[VIDEO]

 

[boykin2010]

There is currently a group working on getting a standard approved for European use. I think it is for the European rare breed society and I assume American's will follow their standard. When I see it is published I will post it here or at least post a link to the site for those of you who are looking for a real standard instead of just knowing they are supposed to be "all black, all black, all black," I have seen the proposed standard and for anyone interested, the proposed standard for egg color is white or slightly tinted.

Ayam Cemanis, Svart Hona, and pretty much all other fibromelanistic breeds are extremely new to the US and to expect every bird that hatches to be an exemplary specimen is ridiculous. Breeders are working very hard and one day we will achieve and produce the quality that so many people are wanting. Even according to Indonesian breeders just because one breeds two best quality (black all over) birds together, does not mean their offspring will be the same quality. I believe I read somewhere where an experienced breeder said that breeding two best quality birds together will only produce 5-10% of the offspring being all black? This breed is challenging - that's for sure. But I don't think that is a reason to bash other breeders who are truly trying their best to improve the breed LEGALLY. Importing from Indonesia is illegal so one cannot just spend thousands upon thousands and import a whole flock of perfect birds. We will work with what we can obtain legally and years from now fibromelanistic birds in America will be adhering to the standards being created not just for color but also for type.

 

[MarBar]

There is currently a group working on getting a standard approved for European use. I think it is for the European rare breed society and I assume American's will follow their standard. When I see it is published I will post it here or at least post a link to the site for those of you who are looking for a real standard instead of just knowing they are supposed to be "all black, all black, all black," I have seen the proposed standard and for anyone interested, the proposed standard for egg color is white or slightly tinted.

Ayam Cemanis, Svart Hona, and pretty much all other fibromelanistic breeds are extremely new to the US and to expect every bird that hatches to be an exemplary specimen is ridiculous. Breeders are working very hard and one day we will achieve and produce the quality that so many people are wanting. Even according to Indonesian breeders just because one breeds two best quality (black all over) birds together, does not mean their offspring will be the same quality. I believe I read somewhere where an experienced breeder said that breeding two best quality birds together will only produce 5-10% of the offspring being all black? This breed is challenging - that's for sure. But I don't think that is a reason to bash other breeders who are truly trying their best to improve the breed LEGALLY. Importing from Indonesia is illegal so one cannot just spend thousands upon thousands and import a whole flock of perfect birds. We will work with what we can obtain legally and years from now fibromelanistic birds in America will be adhering to the standards being created not just for color but also for type.

It was not my intention to start any sort of issue here but I have been looking into these birds for a bit and found the price of the Wolfwhyte birds to be affordable and he seems to have knowledge and a history with chickens, eggs and breeding, but I had questions on the egg color. He imported his Cemani in the early or mid 1990's - way before Toni-Marie and Greenfire.
The juvenile pairs being sold lay a brown egg and cost much less than the others being sold so more folks may be able to afford them and may create a bigger customer base and could also apply for American Standard as Ayam Cemani. Since neither meet the official native breed definition what would make either 'superior' to the other?