B.Y.C. Dorking Club!

[Kilsharion]

In the 90's there was a major effort made to get the Cuckoo Dorking into the SOP. To what avail? There's not a single flock of high quality Cuckoo Dorkings around today--not one, unless it's hiding somewhere in a pine grove unbeknownst to anyone else. If any censure is due, it's due in light of this flagrant example of upside down priorities, especially because they knew better than to allow themselves to be diverted by a variety that, even in England, was never anything more than marginal. All of the brouhaha was being done to get Cuckoo Dorkings into the SOP while the general state of the Dorking breed was starting to whirlpool above the drain.

Huh...that's interesting. I was just reading the dorking breed standards for Great Britain and they had a cuckoo variation listed. As well, it appears their reds are significantly different than are America's in colouration, which fires my desire to import some even more. Then again, maybe I am missing something - it wouldn't be the first time.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Huh...that's interesting. I was just reading the dorking breed standards for Great Britain and they had a cuckoo variation listed. As well, it appears their reds are significantly different than are America's in colouration, which fires my desire to import some even more. Then again, maybe I am missing something - it wouldn't be the first time.

Yup. they are indeed, in the UK Standard, but the more research you do, the more you;ll find that they were always the last in line among the Standardized varieties.

Another thought is that being in the SOP doesn't necessarily legitimize something. There are several varieties in different breeds that never really had much of following outside of a tide-swell from a fad and a few organized breeders that got them in.

The British Reds are colored more or less like a Redcap. There's no need to import them, they'll show up still in a lot of the Red lines around today.

Yet another shed......

 

[pysankigirl]

I do like reds!

I wanted to make sure that I didn't give y'all the imression that Mr Russell was not in good health.

He said that he has seen alot of the older guys into heritage chickens die off and the relatives didn't necessarily know what they had or who to contact to dispense of their flocks in the best way. Some flocks that took decades to perfect that have just gone to the meat processor.& He has found out months afterwards that someone is gone and noone knows what happened to their chickens. And he has seen dorkings go from a popular breed to pretty rare and fears the loss of the genetics. So in trying to disperse some of his genetics, I think he's just being a realist and admitting that we never know what could happen. and no one wants to see their life's work lost.

Someone PM'd me asking after his health and I didn't want anyone to get the wrong idea.

 

[cbnovick]

Hmmm....Craig is so enthusiastic about his colors; it is great fun to talk to him about them. Still, the colors aren't going to be lost. They're always right there sitting underneath. Creles, Cuckoos, Dark Greys, Birchens, Brown Reds, Coloreds all of these patterns and then some, pretty much everything that runs through the Old English Game specturm, can be had by crossing the primary Dorking varieties: White, Red, and SG, and these will only be great again if they are the focus of strong breeding efforts. Then, when these other non-Standard colors are recreated, they'll actually be good Dorkings.

Of course, go for it. No one's going to hate anyone, for the love of Pete! It's just trying to be really honest. In any breed where there are multiple varieties, all the superfluous varieties do is detract from the general health of the breed. If you look at poultry history, the strongest breeds of large fowl have 1 to 3 varieties of any value, and only one has four--Cochins. All of the other varieties always look like the dregs: poor vigor, poor conformation, small, small, small. It's just the way of it. Really the overall health of a variety depends on multiple breeders and concerted efforts. The more breeders working with a single variety, the greater the chance of it achieving excellence.

Your Reds will be strong, not only because of what you're doing, but because of what others are doing. Over the years, they're going to get bigger, meatier, longer, deeper, more productive. The feathers are going to become lusher; they'll be wider. Your hens won't have trreaded backs through the breeding season because of enhanced feather quality. They'll be vigorous and disease-resistant, and all of this because you're part of a community bettering Red Dorkings.

Our Whites are getting better and better, and their strength lies in the other homesteads that are picking them up. Nothing makes be feel more confident in the eventul success of what we're doing here, like the knowledge of budding success in the pens of other breeders dedicated to the Whites.

By all means enjoy the colors, but they'll always be fun mongrels. You'll have them for a bit, and then need to get something to cross into them, and you'll keep doing it in this sort of cycle: cross for vigor, fix the color, degradation; cross for vigor, fix the color, degradation. It's cool, as long as it brings you pleasure, but it really doesn't do anything for Dorkings per se.

So, it's not about censure. It's just about an actual vision of what you're doing. Craig has been an excellent ambassador for Dorkings. He spreads enthusiasm and gets everyone talking. Still, what he isn't doing is spreading around a bunch of high quality Dorkings reflecting the many years he's been breeding them. For all the years he's been working on Dorkings, none of his stock that I've ever seen in the last decade is of particularly strong quality. It's on par with everything else out there, of course, but it isn't better, and much of that has to do with all the color projects he likes to do. With careful analysis, we might see that it's because the general pool of Dorking quality has been going down the drain for decades--literally decades. All of these color varieties, which are really just color mongrels, are produced by borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. Dorking breeders have been so worried about the color of the barn that they failed to realize that the roof was caving in.

In the 90's there was a major effort made to get the Cuckoo Dorking into the SOP. To what avail? There's not a single flock of high quality Cuckoo Dorkings around today--not one, unless it's hiding somewhere in a pine grove unbeknownst to anyone else. If any censure is due, it's due in light of this flagrant example of upside down priorities, especially because they knew better than to allow themselves to be diverted by a variety that, even in England, was never anything more than marginal. All of the brouhaha was being done to get Cuckoo Dorkings into the SOP while the general state of the Dorking breed was starting to whirlpool above the drain.

I don't know any poultry community that talks more about "buiding the barn before you paint it" as much as the Dorking community, and yet, as a community they have, in the past at least, been so easily distracted by paint. The way to remove color as a factor is not to discount it but to revere it. The reasons for which all the Dorking barns look like Dorking sheds are several, not the least being that they have been unfairly censured in poultry literature for ridiculous minutiae that count for nothing. On the other hand, Dorking breeders for decades have been too busy painting sheds instead of building barns. To this day, all you have to do is go to ebay and there are already faux-breeders peddling a bunch of nothing as good quality Dorkings, and all they'll accomplish is the deception of new-comers who think that they're getting something worth raising. Instead they'll end up disappointed, and I bet most won't be back to try raising good Dorkings again.

These other non-Standard colors have never been anything but fancier's play--ever--anywhere--on this or that side of the Atlantic, and in any century from which we have reliable, written documentation. It's reasonable to imagine that fanciers have often kept a pen of this or of that for kicks because these colors do pop up if you cross the primary colors of White, Red, and Silver Grey. The only exception here would be to throw in the Colored Dorking, which is an intermediate color variety, not one that has an ancient tradition of on-going excellence, but one that did enjoy a fair level of success in the 1800's. It's weakness, like anything in a more or less Golden Duckwing pattern is that it is an intermediate pattern that cannot self-sustain over time. Its general health quite literally depends on the existence of strong Silver Duckwing, i.e. Silver Greys and Red Duckwing, i.e. Reds. Without the occasional, but regular, outcrossing to Reds, Coloreds will get lighter and lighter until they're just smutty Silver Greys. To anyone who has worked with Coloreds recently, this should sound rather familiar.

Cuckoos are had by crossing Whites and SGs, which will also create Dark Greys, Birchens, and Mottled, especially if you cross F1s on F1s. Birchens, if crossed to Reds will create Brown Reds. Creles are had by crossing Reds and Cuckoos. Spangled are had by crossing Mottleds onto Reds. We could do this again and again, but to what avail? It all comes down to Whites, Reds, and SGs. The question is how good is the barn and not about whether we can or cannot paint a shed. The reality is that the poultry world here or at the hatcheries is full of painted sheds. Recently, on another chat site, I foolishly chimed in on a thread talking about non-Standard colors and how we might save the traditional varieties, but the talk was the same as it always is, ie "Don't tell me what color I can paint my shed!". It wasn't even worth trying to continue the conversation.

If Dorkings are ever going to be show stoppers again, if they're ever going to merit the effusive praise that they received through merit in by-gone days as the single best pure-bred meat breed ever developed, it will be in the three colors: White, Red, and Silver Grey. It's going to take another solid decade of weighing birds, culling hard, and strong focus to rebuild the caved in roof on the Dorking barn, and even then there really won't be room for another barn. In reality, we will be fortunate if we get these three back there.

So, in conclusion, we are all free to do whatever it is we'd like, but you'll only get bread from following a recipe that leads to bread. If you want biscuits, bake biscuits. It' your kitchen, and it's all good. The only problem is if you really are hoping for bread but find in the end that you've been following a recipe that leads to biscuits. Then you're sad. The only unfortunate thing is if you've been convinced that biscuits and bread are the same thing, because then we're not being honest. Also, avoid falling into the sham of trying to pawn off biscuits as bread. It's unfair to tell beginners that there's a whole lot of heritage in an empty shell.

 

[pysankigirl]

.

I am not experienced enough with chickens to refute your claims. but I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you either.
I do respect your opinion, but also his. You are trying for greatness for the breed. I can respect that. You don't want the dorkings spread too thin because you worry that greatness can only come with concentration of efforts?

I want to help preserve what exists. I don't think it will detract. I will try to only breed the good birds, regardless of what color they are.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

I am not experienced enough with chickens to refute your claims. but I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you either.
I do respect your opinion, but also his. You are trying for greatness for the breed. I can respect that. You don't want the dorkings spread too thin because you worry that greatness can only come with concentration of efforts?

I want to help preserve what exists. I don't think it will detract. I will try to only breed the good birds, regardless of what color they are.

That's cool, but, perhaps, you might reread what I wrote at some point. You'll find over time that it's probably pretty on.

When you get to know poultry of high quality, I mean really nice stock, you'll notice a few things.

1. Breeds maintain quality in only a few varieties, the rest, invariably, are garbage.
2. It takes many a breeder to make a strong variety. There are no Lone Rangers of high quality; there is a community of excellence, or there's one person with stock on life support. Or there's one breeder with outstanding resources.
3. The best birds are owned by the best breeders.
4. The best breeders always limit the varieties they keep, which is how they became the best breeders.
5. If someone keeps a dozen or more breeds of chickens, then they're a chicken collector and not a breeder; chances are if they have more than eight, you could say the same.
6. There are very few who actually do what it takes to be a good breeder, though there are many who set out; most seem to get distracted along the way.
7. A good breeder has an exceptonal level of commitment, and is not wavered by fad or fashion. There is the SOP, the heritage, and the discipline.

I'm not saying this to be overlord-ish; rather just remember them. Once you start regularly attending shows, you;ll find them to rather accurate. It takes a little while to begin to see the really good birds, but when you do meet the breeder. You will find the above, or you will find that they bought a good breeders stock and in four years the birds are already going down hill because of number 5 and 6. You'll see it again and again and again.

You have Reds and Barnevelders; that's a heck of a hobby right there.

 

[countrygoddess]

They will. They're toughies. Our strain of birds lays rather well, laying has been something I've kept an eye on over the years. You'll be able to select for this, too, as seasons go on. Those were freezing days, though. Give them some extra protein, some wheat, and some oats.

Wheat and oats are in the feed I make them. I'm giving them extra protein, too. I just found 4 frozen eggs under the nesting boxes yesterday, so I think they're back online. 4" of space under there! They must really want to be cozy. As far as selecting for laying... I was thinking about that when they stopped and then one day there was a single white egg in the nest. How am I supposed to know who came back to laying first/best? How do YOU keep track of who is laying what, how many, and when?

 

[cukooformarans]

There is an interesting thread (probably more than one, but one that I know of) on trap nesting on BYC.

 

[yinepu]

That's cool, but, perhaps, you might reread what I wrote at some point. You'll find over time that it's probably pretty on.

When you get to know poultry of high quality, I mean really nice stock, you'll notice a few things.

1. Breeds maintain quality in only a few varieties, the rest, invariably, are garbage.
2. It takes many a breeder to make a strong variety. There are no Lone Rangers of high quality; there is a community of excellence, or there's one person with stock on life support. Or there's one breeder with outstanding resources.
3. The best birds are owned by the best breeders.
4. The best breeders always limit the varieties they keep, which is how they became the best breeders.
5. If someone keeps a dozen or more breeds of chickens, then they're a chicken collector and not a breeder; chances are if they have more than eight, you could say the same.
6. There are very few who actually do what it takes to be a good breeder, though there are many who set out; most seem to get distracted along the way.
7. A good breeder has an exceptonal level of commitment, and is not wavered by fad or fashion. There is the SOP, the heritage, and the discipline.

I'm not saying this to be overlord-ish; rather just remember them. Once you start regularly attending shows, you;ll find them to rather accurate. It takes a little while to begin to see the really good birds, but when you do meet the breeder. You will find the above, or you will find that they bought a good breeders stock and in four years the birds are already going down hill because of number 5 and 6. You'll see it again and again and again.

You have Reds and Barnevelders; that's a heck of a hobby right there.

I think I can argue a little bit with #5

I have a coop of layers and mixed breeds.. but they are just that.. a mixed collection with no particular breeding in mind.. they are my "collection" if you will. They get fed and tended to..older birds go to freezer camp .. when we decide we need more birds to replace the older ones we either hatch out a batch of mutts or place an order for a half dozen breeds just because we like to see the variety. We have the land and can afford to feed them.. plus the extra eggs go to feed the dogs and are given away to friends who have no intention of hatching them and are just looking for a good meal

However my Dorkings will be my "project" birds.. they will be kept in smaller coops of breeding sets.. carefully culled and records kept.

So just because I have a coop of assorted breeds it does not impact on my Dorking projects at all..
So in essence you COULD call me a collector of mutts..But more importantly a breeder of Dorkings because that's where my dedication lies

 

[yinepu]

Wheat and oats are in the feed I make them. I'm giving them extra protein, too. I just found 4 frozen eggs under the nesting boxes yesterday, so I think they're back online. 4" of space under there! They must really want to be cozy. As far as selecting for laying... I was thinking about that when they stopped and then one day there was a single white egg in the nest. How am I supposed to know who came back to laying first/best? How do YOU keep track of who is laying what, how many, and when?

You can try the trap nesting cuckoo mentioned.. or you can also check their vents.. a bird that is not laying or who has just started with have a small closed up dry vent
A bird that is in full production or who is just coming off of it will have a much more open moist vent.

the spacing between the pubic bones is also a tell tale sign. You will be able to place more fingers between them on a laying bird than one who is not laying