B.Y.C. Dorking Club!

well, my roo 'junior' is either extremely brave or extremely stupid...

i was going down to check on the broody momma who took all the babies that just hatched, and straight ahead of me about 50 feet or so, was a couple silver grey girls and my roo Junior with them...

it hapenned so fast, but out of nowhere, a hawk swoops down toward one of the girls, and junior launced at the same time and connected HARD with the hawk... both landed, hawk took off, and poor junior's got a bloody cut on the back of his head and comb...

made one heck of a mess, but the bleeding stopped pretty quick. the rain just helped it spread faster i think...

i'm not posting the pic directly, to spare the squeamish. LOL

click here
Wow...what a good boy!!! yeah...blood and water makes it seem more than it really is but still...I am sure that you cleaned him up properly and gave him a nice treat...what a good boy!
 
WWWOOOOWWWW!!!! I leave cyberspace for a few days and look what I miss!


Last night I read all the posts that I'd missed over the last few days, and I was stunned at the tone that had developed on this thread. I wanted to reply right away, but thought it was best to sleep on it first.

Before I express my total disappointment at what has happened here, I want to emphasize that I do understand the drive and passion that top breeders have for their work. It takes years of sacrifice, dedication, hard work, disappointment, frustration, redirection, time, travel, money, research, collaboration, etc, etc, to reach your goals, often with very little appreciation shown by those who buy your stock. And I understand that you can be very protective of your chosen breed when a newbie with lesser stock, knowledge, experience, etc, seeks to join your ranks and appears to be doing everything "wrong." I've spent the last 25 years working with both top breeders and clueless breeders, and everything in-between. Just this last week I talked someone out of breeding two Rottweilers that were so crippled they should have been culled after they took their first steps (they probably won't be able to walk by the time they're a year old), and then the next day helped an excellent breeder artificially inseminate her 2 year old, fully screened for all known health issues, newly championed Labrador with $1,500 semen in hopes of producing puppies with the potential to surpass even their near-perfect parents. So I do understand what it takes to get to the top, how protective you are of your passion, and the consequences of promoting sub-standard breeding stock.

But what I don't understand is cruelty for sport. That's what bullying is, and that's what happened here two days ago.

When YHF posted his opinion about the standards of a good breeder (post #3472) he made some excellent points, and I agree with everything he said, except this:

"The spreading around of mongrels just makes mongrels the practice of folks who aren't thereby beginning with good stock. If folks come to your place and walk away with mutts, they're getting common refuse. What does that serve and how does it benefit them? "

REALLY!?! You flat-out called Karen's efforts garbage! I can tell you what that served and who that benefited. That served to reveal you as someone who was intentionally hurtful and unempathetic, who used his reputation as an educator to add apparent authenticity to a vicious comment. And it benefited no one except your ego! It lowered this forum to serving as a voice for the adult version of schoolyard bullies.

Come on YHF, that was Karen you publicly raked over the coals. Everyone on this thread knows Karen. She's a new breeder with lots of enthusiasm, big plans and lots of work to do before she has everything the way she wants it. She has some health problems and some financial concerns that slow her progress, but she does the best she can as fast as she can with what she has. And you may not agree with everything she says, but it is of value that she regularly contributes to this forum and keeps conversations moving. We've all read enough of her posts to know that she values the SOP, and will be striving towards it when she's set up to do so. Just because she has enough of a brain to conduct her own test breedings to further investigate color mutations does not mean that she's trying to subvert the standard; intellectual curiosity should be something to be admired. She's not the type of person who is passing off mixed breed birds as breeding stock. She's selling them as egg layers, meat birds, or pets, all of which mixed breed birds do perfectly well in non-commercial settings. Yes YHF, everyone on this thread knows Karen's situation, including you, so you can't later claim that you didn't know what was going on or how your comments would hurt her.

I really appreciate that Kilsharion, Pysankigirl, and BlackPanther took the time to write well-thought-out responses, instead of just the knee-jerk reactions of disgust that we felt when we read the YHF post. I agree with their comments completely. I for one, as I cannot speak for them, am quite disheartened that YHF would write such a comment. YHF, up until now you were someone that I respected as a "cyberspace mentor;" someone who had given hours of his time to write and post valuable information to help strangers you will likely never meet, but who share your love of Dorkings. But the insults you hurled were an abuse of power over those who admire(d) you, and you are old enough to know that wounds from those we look up to are the ones that hurt the most. You have a real gift for written communication, and many of us have learned a great deal from you. But because you are so gifted with the written word, I am doubly confused by this:
Well, there you go. Nothing like a little situation definition. "'I see' says the blind man". That was clarifying and helpful.
What is this??? If you are saying that you now understand that Karen is not damaging all of Dorkingdom with her actions and that you were incredibly mean-spirited with your comments, why have you not apologized? You owe an apology to everyone on this site that you infuriated with your insensitivity, and you owe Karen the most sincere apology that your considerable writing skills can create. And since you insulted her publicly, it is only appropriate that you apologize publicly.

Greenhorn, you're not innocent in all this either. Your first comment, stating that you don't hatch eggs of unknown parentage, was completely appropriate. But as the conversation turned ugly you just couldn't resist the urge to pile on, like a little bully in training. Your post #3474, asking Karen "What did you expect?" was especially nasty. What she expected was a respectful conversation from a group of people that know her situation and could help guide her to a reasonable solution. She did not expect to be emotionally sucker punched by one of the group's most prominent contributors. Your sarcastic comments were a rude, backhanded, holier-than-thou knife twisting to someone who was already in pain. Shame on you.

This thread was started by Chickenmom in 2009 to be a place for meaningful discussion for all those who loved Dorkings, had Dorkings, wanted Dorkings, or bred Dorkings. It was intended to be a place for everyone, and for over 3400 posts it has been. If those of you who consider yourself "professional" breeders want your own thread, then start one and keep it exclusive. But before you do that, man up and apologize for the hurt you've caused. Because in all the years that I've been lucky enough to work with some of the truly great breeders out there, I've never before heard one of them refer to an enthusiastic newcomer's trial and error stock as "refuse."

--April

P.S. Along the same lines of inappropriate sarcasm and total disrespect, both Greenhorn and Total Colour were truly childish to Sandiklaws. If you believe that the plan to outcross Dorkings to improve Faverolles is flawed, then explain your reasoning. Constructive criticism is valuable. But when someone lays out a breeding plan and your only comment is "Oh God" and "X2," that is neither valuable nor constructive. It's belittling and mean, with no explanation. Just an emotional hit and run, unbecoming of properly socialized adults. (BTW, outcrossing is a well-established method of improving vitality in many rare breeds of many domestic species. Many pedigreed species, of which poultry breeding has not yet ascended to, have approved outcrossings listed for each breed that the practice applies to in their SOP. Without outcrossing, we would have lost numerous rare breeds of many species throughout modern history; breeds that were only saved by a few dedicated breeders and well-planned outcrossing -- not by smart*ss comments).

(Darn, I was planning to get through this rant without cussing, but temptation can taint even the best-intentioned among us.)
 
Quote: actually he wouldn't let me anywhere near him... so i made sure there was plenty of feed, and he's gone to bed. last time he fought the others (roo dominance thing) he got kinda bloody and within a day or 2 his feathers were back white again.
 
Last edited:
yeah, I could see that. kind of like a kid who doesn't want his mom's help after a fight...the adrenaline is still going.
I am so glad he is going to be okay. The one downside to freeranging is the hawk problem. I have lots of things for my girls to duck and cover under, but a random attack from nowhere....who can protect from that. I told my husband about your roo and he echo'ed my "good boy!" sentiment.
 
well, my roo 'junior' is either extremely brave or extremely stupid...

i was going down to check on the broody momma who took all the babies that just hatched, and straight ahead of me about 50 feet or so, was a couple silver grey girls and my roo Junior with them...

it hapenned so fast, but out of nowhere, a hawk swoops down toward one of the girls, and junior launced at the same time and connected HARD with the hawk... both landed, hawk took off, and poor junior's got a bloody cut on the back of his head and comb...

made one heck of a mess, but the bleeding stopped pretty quick. the rain just helped it spread faster i think...

i'm not posting the pic directly, to spare the squeamish. LOL

click here
Now there's a rooster who truly knows his job. It's not just all about the perks! Good job little man! That's a behavior trait to breed for.

Years ago there was a picture published in Backyard Chicken Magazine of a rooster rushing at a swooping hawk. The photographer captured a once in a lifetime shot. It showed just how valuable roosters can be to free range (happy) hens.

Five years ago my husband and I inherited a small flock of black Croad Langshans from my father-in-law. There were 5 hens and 2 roosters, about 1 year old. My husband drove them up from Los Angeles to Seattle in mid-February over 2 1/2 days. I had build them a 3X4 foot chicken house surrounded by a 6X12 foot predator-proof covered yard. The house had lots of venting, and could be easily disassembled for cleaning, but the only door was a 9X12 inch opening near the floor. The floor was thickly bedded with aspen shavings, the perches were padded to prevent bumblefoot, and the yard was covered with chopped straw. It was paradise compared to where they had been living. But they were unsocialized, terrified, exhausted, and had never seen snow (or padded perches or bedding or a secure chicken house for that matter). It took some doing to coax them into the house, and both roosters defended their hens from me with surprising endurance. But the amazing thing happened once they got settled into the house. The hens got up on the top perches, but the roosters teamed up to stand watch all night, for weeks. They both layed inside on the floor, one on one side and the other on the oppposite side of the opening, angled such that between the two of them they could see everything outside that house, even if a predator approached along the wall. After a few weeks the dominant rooster began to perch with the hens, leaving the subordinate rooster to stand watch on the floor. It was more than a month before the subordinate rooster began to perch.

Once they were allowed to free range outside of the covered pen the teamwork between the roosters became even more apparent. For the first month or more the flock never separated by more than a few feet. The dominant rooster would take up the front, the hens walked in the center, and the subordinate rooster took up the rear, frequently looking behind him. When the hens stopped to forage or dustbathe, one of the roosters always watched the sky (lots of eagles and hawks in the Pacific NW), and one of the roosters always scanned the pastures (for coyotes). If any threats were seen, the alarm was sounded and the hens were rushed underneath the nearest cover, where one rooster stood guard at the edge in one direction and the other rooster in the opposite direction. Even now, confident in their surroundings, the two roosters still coordinate for the security of the hens, although a bit less strictly. But at night it's always the same -- the dominant rooster goes into the pen, then the house, and searches for predators before the waiting hens are given the signal to come inside. The subordinate rooster stands guard with his back to the pen and eyes to the fields as the hens and dominant rooster eat and drink in carefree safety. Only after they have all entered the house does the subordinate rooster enter the pen, eat and drink, then perch, always closest to and facing the door.

I thought about slaughtering the subordinate rooster all during the first year -- he's kind of a jerk to me, and 2 roosters is too many for only 5 hens. But the 2 boys coordinate so well together, and the girls now have their backs protected with Hensaver brand saddles, so it has worked out well. I'm hoping that my 2 Dorking roosters will learn to cooperate just as well, and only need to be separated during breeding season.
 
You should send this picture to your Leo's breeder. What a wonderful example of a truly gentle giant.
You know, you are right, I should. I guess I am just so used to their temperment and how good they are with the chicks that I take it for granted. and I shouldn't.
 
Last edited:
Quote: i don't take Sunny (the standard poodle) for granted, but he is handy at times, like during rooster squabbles, sunny will run up between then and gently 'whop' each one on the back/tail to get their attention and keep going. LOL he knows fighting/harrassing isn't allowed (baby roos trying to drag the girls into submission as well). he runs so playfully when the chickens are near, it's nothing to watch him reach out with a paw going by and try to bump one. they've all learned to either run to the side, or duck. LOL those that duck get jumped over. the ones that go to the side get passed by. it's the ones that run straight away from him that he manages to whop, and they all seem to learn quickly he's just playing. but they also learn to move out of his way, which is handy for me, since my balance isn't always so great and trying not to step on toes can be hard while staying on my own.

he takes his jobs, as service dog, keeper of the peace and part time guardian very seriously, but adds that great standard poodle-ish element of play to everything he does. but he was too busy looking for the egg-looting possum to notice the hawk this time.
 
the question is now, what to do with the next almost 90 eggs from the free rangers. (and 10 more pure, & 10 bantam cochin...)

I don't keep offspring from matings that I have no clue as to the parentage. Those sound like breakfast eggs to me.

The spreading around of mongrels just makes mongrels the practice of folks who aren't thereby beginning with good stock. If folks come to your place and walk away with mutts, they're getting common refuse. What does that serve and how does it benefit them?

Well, I wasn't actually going to address all of this, and for those who already brought the thread elsewhere, I apologize for the return, but the last statement tried a bit too hard to paint what I said as being some sort of personal attack, which I suppose it may have been misconstrued to be.

The question, as quoted above, was straightforward. What's to be done with a bunch of cross-bred eggs? Greenhorn's response was poetically simple and to the point--one eats them. My response was more illustrative, and is a very typical response from a breeder. Now, tone is hard to communicate through a thread, but I'm not a "bully" or "mean-spirited" or "holier-than-thou" or whatever else has been "hurled" at me for my response. If you go to an APA/ABA sanctioned show and state, "I have 90 cross-bred eggs, what should I do with them?" These responses would be typical of what one would hear, "Those sound like breakfast eggs to me" or "The spreading around of mongrels just makes mongrels the practice of folks who aren't thereby beginning with good stock." Others would be harsh; some might just walk away, but that's not my way. I'd simply, with a smile and politeness say, "The spreading around of mongrels just makes mongrels the practice of folks who aren't thereby beginning with good stock. If folks come to your place and walk away with mutts, they're getting common refuse. What does that serve and how does it benefit them?"

Now I admit, "common refuse" might sound harsh. The most technical word I could have used, and really, in retrospect should have used, and for this I do, indeed, "publically" apologize, is "culls". These are, of course, semantics, though, at best. So my statement should have read, "The spreading around of mongrels just makes mongrels the practice of folks who aren't thereby beginning with good stock. If folks come to your place and walk away with mutts, they're getting culls. What does that serve and how does it benefit them?"

There's more to hatching an egg in the act of breeding a layer. Selling cross culls as layers? There are very distinct reasons for which the egg-laying industry is built primarily on two lines: very specifically inbred White Leghorns and Production Reds, a RIR X NH which is created by crossing very specifically bred lines of pure RIR and NH. There are, admittedly a couple of other highly respected lines for brown eggs, although this tends to be the most common. Otherwise, one can have recourse to purebred stock that has been specifically selected for laying qualities. Before the establishment of the APA and the mass concentration on selective breeding, the average backyard mongrel laid approximately 80 eggs a year; that's less that 7 dozen eggs. Strong egg-laying is developed over time and maintained through the careful maintenance of pro-laying inbreeding. Mongrels are vigorous, but very little can be claimed for their capacity to lay. One could, I suppose, sell them for meat, again without being able to make any great claims, just relying on the fact that one can eat them. I guess one could sell them for pets, but then we arrive at my first statement...

These however, are all breeder thought-processes. I can't apologize for them, for that would be a lie. I can, however, apologize for not really understanding the tone of this thread. The responses to what I said, which was, again, a very typical breeder response to the question of what to do with 90 cross-bred eggs, were extremely clarifying, which is what I said, which is what I meant. I read each response carefully and tried to read through the anger to hear what was actually being said. I deduced the sum of it is that this needs to be a thread for those who "love" Dorkings, not just and/or specifically a thread for those who "breed" Dorkings. Thus, in the future I shall only make response as is fitting to statements or questions to which I can respond honestly without hurting the sensitivities of those who "love" their Dorkings. Thus, I apologize and endeavor to make amends.

However, I need to address something very specific that was targeted at me as an expression or example of my mean-spirited insensitivity, and this is that apparently everybody on this thread knows about what's going on in Karen's life. First and foremost, Karen, if you are experiencing personal difficulties. I am sorry. If selling 90 mongrel chicks helps the situation, by all means. Heck, if Greenfire Farms can sell their ridiculousness at $999.00 (!!!) for a single juvenile pair (!!!!) and get folks to buy their "Jubilee Orpingtons" , well than why not, right? Welcome to capitalism. However, I don't actually know what is going on in Karen's life or anyone else life, for that matter.

The only posts I read on this thread are specifically those which have to do with the breeding of Dorkings: the specifics of breeding, the functions of breeding, the qualms of breeding. If a post does not deal directly with these concerns, I don't read it. If it begins "My 'roo' is so cute" or what have you, I simply skip it. There are many posts I don't read. It is not that I am insensitive, rather I am very private. If readers of this post stop to consider it, no one here knows anything at all about my personal life save the barest minimum information. If the "correct" answer to the question of what is to be done with 90 crossbred eggs depended on an in-depth understanding of a personal situation, then I certainly should have held my tongue, although one could assert that such a question, then, also may have belonged, depending on the nature of the personal information, in a "pm".

Thus I apologize for not using the word "cull" and for not having considered that a large portion of the readership of this thread may be of the "I love my chicken" type. I am humanely sorry, Karen, if you are suffering something difficult in your personal life that relates back to your experience with chickens or simply in general.

After my statement, much was stated about others' personal approaches with their Dorkings and to chickens in general: hopes, aspirations, intentions, needs for belonging, etc... As I mentioned, it was very clarifying. Perhaps, I should be clearer than I have been:

I am an APA-oriented chicken breeder, and every move I make with regards to our farm is directed at and derived from the Standard of Perfection. I strive to learn from and emulate the very best breeders, both past and present, whose specific methodologies lead and have led to tangible, concrete results of nigh perfection. I work to remove any impediment or distraction from that goal. When I teach others, I approach them with the SOP and through the SOP. If they're not interested in the SOP, I'm polite and courteous but then I move on. This is not an expression of insensitivity but rather the recognition that there are others who are more qualified to approach them from the point of view for which they are hoping.
My earliest memories are full of my parents' extensive poultry flocks for which I was quickly made responsible as my age made me qualified to do chores and my obvious predilection for them made the chores an act of love and meditation. I spent my youth getting up at 4am to quickly make my lunch and assemble my school bag and then out I went to do the chores and sit with the birds. When I was old enough, I was permitted to procure my own birds, and I began my own efforts in breeding with Mille Fleur D'Uccles and Black-tailed White Japanese from a breeder a few towns over. We were too poor to afford books, especially an SOP, but I read every poultry book from the surrounding town libraries one of which had an old black and white SOP over which I poured for hours. From the time I was old enough to understand the difference between a purebred and a mongrel, I have never understood mongrels and never will. Like most breeders, if I look at a specimen and see it's a mongrel, I pause, make some quick assessment to what might be its parentage and then walk away.
On our farm, I research constantly, daily. I read and re-read, learn and re-learn. I grill and re-grill any qualified breeder for every single drip of information she or he can give me. I ask every judge I know to walk me through any class he or she wishes to teach me every possible thing. I clerk whenever possible and drive the poor judges nuts with my questions.
I breed and raise by the hundreds and when I cull I cull. It distresses me to part with birds because they are not good enough. Greenhorn is actually the reason why I started shipping chicks, because I knew he really wanted Whites, knew he was going to take them very seriously, and knew he would take the time to understand the difference between where they're at and where they're going.
Last year, I past on some broodies, cull pullets I had reserved for hatching eggs, to a poultry friend who breeds bantams for exhibition, who just wanted them for a few extra eggs. I was reticent, but why not. To my dismay, one of them ended up at the county fair. I was deeply troubled and embarrassed, still I had failed to specify distinctly that these were not "public" birds. Of course, I was discreet and never mentioned my dismay. Still in a show of over 800 birds, the White Dorking pullet took Champion English. When I sheepishly approached the judge as to why, he stated quickly and without reservation, it's the only bird up here (meaning in among the English class) with proper type. Of course, he knew that I knew that he knew that the bird was still only a cull.

I could go on but it would be redundant. The point is that this is how I approach poultry. I don't name them; I wing-band them. I don't give them treats; I throw them specific scratch grains. I don't think they're sweet; I take distinct note of their temperament for the concerns of culling and breeding. I assess them specifically for laying and conformation-based meat qualities. I weigh them at specific points and final is final. I don't cuddle with them. I only handle them with the intention of making them caged train and manageable. I do not treat for illness, save the basic run of the mill parasites, I cull. After the show incident, I shall never let a cull bird off of our property again--at least to my knowledge, and selling chicks makes me very stressed because I want them to be even better first--I just respect the desire of and need for good breeders.

After taking a few days to think about it and remove myself, I feel that it is best if I become more of a lurker here than a poster. The fact that what I posted in response to a very basic question was so utterly shocking, creating an environment of defensive hostility and banner-waving, is, to my understanding, more simply an expression of how I come at poultry breeding from a very different point of view than many on this thread, which is neither good nor bad, nor an indictment of any sort, and honestly I had not understood the extent of difference prior. In the end, I'm rather grateful, even though it was a bit tumultuous, situation definition is necessary, especially in a cyber environment.

The very best of luck,
YHF
 
Last edited:
P.S. Along the same lines of inappropriate sarcasm and total disrespect, both Greenhorn and Total Colour were truly childish to Sandiklaws. If you believe that the plan to outcross Dorkings to improve Faverolles is flawed, then explain your reasoning. Constructive criticism is valuable. But when someone lays out a breeding plan and your only comment is "Oh God" and "X2," that is neither valuable nor constructive.
(Darn, I was planning to get through this rant without cussing, but temptation can taint even the best-intentioned among us.)

Sorry, we all have less than stellar days. My one liner was made in reference to the drama i figured was going to follow.

Karen and Sandiklaws, I owe you both an apology. Guess I get a little carried away about my own ideals and how I think breeding should be done. I'm not an expert and don't have any business to criticize what other folks are doing with their own birds. I'm going to go back to lurk mode for a while. Most of what I offer isn't in the interest of this thread anyway..... Peace
 

New posts New threads Active threads

Back
Top Bottom