B.Y.C. Dorking Club!

[Totalcolour]

--April

P.S. Along the same lines of inappropriate sarcasm and total disrespect, both Greenhorn and Total Colour were truly childish to Sandiklaws. If you believe that the plan to outcross Dorkings to improve Faverolles is flawed, then explain your reasoning. Constructive criticism is valuable. But when someone lays out a breeding plan and your only comment is "Oh God" and "X2," that is neither valuable nor constructive. It's belittling and mean, with no explanation. Just an emotional hit and run, unbecoming of properly socialized adults. (BTW, outcrossing is a well-established method of improving vitality in many rare breeds of many domestic species. Many pedigreed species, of which poultry breeding has not yet ascended to, have approved outcrossings listed for each breed that the practice applies to in their SOP. Without outcrossing, we would have lost numerous rare breeds of many species throughout modern history; breeds that were only saved by a few dedicated breeders and well-planned outcrossing -- not by smart*ss comments).

(Darn, I was planning to get through this rant without cussing, but temptation can taint even the best-intentioned among us.)

Mea Culpa, and my heartfelt aopologies. I am new to chicken breeding, having come form "Horse" breeding, and in that area, outcrossing to other breeds is a strict "NoNo"; I assumed that it was the same with chickens. The breeders I have talked to without exception (so Far) have all expressed to me that outcrossing to other breeds is not good. I had Icelandics for a while and their thread condemms the practice totally, Loudly and with some nasty comments included.

I am not against outcrossing - I firmly believed that it was the standard for breeding [urebred chickens. I believe that one should stick to the rules. Now that I know they aren't the rules, I publicly and most sincerely appologise to any I have offended by what some may have taken as offensive. .

Having said all of that - outcrsossing "may" not have saved the breeds, they may simply have duplicated them. Since they aren't gentically tested (as are many horse breeds) there is no way to tell if they are the "same" breed as the origianl or not. A horse that is suspected of not being purebred (not all breeds go to this length), can be tested and is struck from the register if it isn't genetically pure.

Kate

 

[capayvalleychick]

Sure but how many serious Dorking breeders actually frequent this thread? You rarely see the kind of input that YellowHouse offers and now he has gone into lurk mode. Can't say I blame him either.... I've found one new site that serious breeders visit ad I'm sure there are more. Not saying that I'm not going to read this thread from time to time but I'm off to find a forum that has more serious discussion about serious breeding. There are a couple other threads here at BYC that I enjoy reading so I'll be around. Don't worry, know I won't be missed lol.

I like to think of myself as a serious breeder. I've made mistakes, my birds aren't the best, but I am serious about breeding them toward the SOP. There are other threads where pros discuss breeding. Those are a great resource. But, there's always a little attitude regarding Dorkings as being a lost cause or not worth the effort. Sometimes I get tired of hearing about Rocks, etc. This thread is a place where we can discuss breeding our Dorks with pride.

So I hope that the serious breeders will stay.

Personally, My opinions about SOP’s are tainted by being someone who loved and championed a dog breed that I wish had never gone AKC…

I understand where you are coming from. That was my same reason for my reluctance to pay attention to the SOP or care about showing. The dog of my heart is a GSD and I hate the AKC (and breeders) who destroyed that breed for show. But poultry shows are not like dog shows. Ask Fowlman01 about that if you don't believe me.
The Standard for Dorkings was written in the 1800's and not much about it has changed. The Dorking Standard was written for a "dual purpose fowl for meat and egg production". It's written to protect the utility aspect of the breed. No one is breeding them to be frou frou pretty birds. Except maybe people who want to goof around creating different color varieties... and that's one of the reasons serious breeders get a little bent out of shape when we hear about that.

If you don't pay attention and select breeding stock that meets the Standard, your Dorkings will slowly change until they aren't really Dorkings anymore. Anybody who simply wants to win shows is not going to choose the Dorking. So using the SOP as a guide is not about showing, it's about preserving the breed.

 

[capayvalleychick]

Mea Culpa, and my heartfelt aopologies. I am new to chicken breeding, having come form "Horse" breeding, and in that area, outcrossing to other breeds is a strict "NoNo"; I assumed that it was the same with chickens. The breeders I have talked to without exception (so Far) have all expressed to me that outcrossing to other breeds is not good. I had Icelandics for a while and their thread condemms the practice totally, Loudly and with some nasty comments included.

I am not against outcrossing - I firmly believed that it was the standard for breeding [urebred chickens. I believe that one should stick to the rules. Now that I know they aren't the rules, I publicly and most sincerely appologise to any I have offended by what some may have taken as offensive. .

Having said all of that - outcrsossing "may" not have saved the breeds, they may simply have duplicated them. Since they aren't gentically tested (as are many horse breeds) there is no way to tell if they are the "same" breed as the origianl or not. A horse that is suspected of not being purebred (not all breeds go to this length), can be tested and is struck from the register if it isn't genetically pure.

Kate

Don't feel bad. I felt the same way, since I breed several types of registered heritage livestock, where grading is absolutely not allowed. Personally, I would not cross breed a foundation poultry breed like the Dorking. Stating that opinion got me ostracized on another thread, so be forewarned.

 

[sandiklaws]

Joseph-

I found your description of yourself enlightening. After reading your post, I do think that you come at this from a different angle from many of the people here. This is “Backyard chickens.com”. And most of us don’t look at them with a purely clinical eye. I daresay that 90% of the people on this site have never been to a poultry show. I know I haven’t. To you they are either worth something as show birds or they are not worth anything at all. To the Backyard chicken owner/breeder all their chickens are worth something if they lay eggs, get meat from them, or simply are restful to watch scratch and peck as you drink your coffee on your front porch in the morning.

I don’t know you and you don’t know me. But please believe that there is no anger in my heart as I write this, only sadness because it seems like we are not going to get out of this without someone packing up their toys and going home. But perhaps you don’t realize that the respect that you command and your intensity in your opinion is a sword that makes your words bite so much harder than some others.

I remember a few months ago when I first started talking about getting eggs from Craig Russell having to put myself into “time out” to try to not be upset by a few of your posts before responding. Perhaps you didn’t know...You are so vehement that your opinions are the right ones that it is intimidating to go against them. So people are afraid to talk about something here that they know that you’d disagree with.

But your opinions are colored by what you think is important, as are mine. And we may not agree on what we think is important. But respectfully disagreeing is part of life.

Personally, My opinions about SOP’s are tainted by being someone who loved and championed a dog breed that I wish had never gone AKC… before Leonbergers went AKC you had to do all kinds of health testing and be 3 generations clear of hip dysplasia before you were allowed to get a pedigree for your dog’s litter. Now that they are AKC, no health testing required. The AKC will give a pedigree to anyone as long as the parents are both AKC pedigree’d. And breeding dogs just to have the look needed to win at shows has turned a lot of dog breeds from useful to preposterous: witness what has happened to the German shepherd…so many health problems caused by wanting that weird low stance in the rear. As a result, my respect for official animal organizations and the beauty pageants they sponsor is jaded. And there are many breeds that haven’t even gotten APA recognition yet. Does that mean they aren’t real breeds? Was the Leonberger not a breed before it was recognized by the AKC?

So yeah: coming at this from different directions. But I don’t think it is the end of the world. It takes all kinds and if we were all the same, life would be really friggin’ boring. But respecting other’s right to have different opinions is what I love about this country and I heartilly believe we should strive to do that here.

UGG! What the AKC does to the working breeds is criminal!

I am going to clear up a few things folk here might have been wondering about;

1. I have been raising and showing Faverolles, in their original salon color for a while now, more breeding then showing as rarely are their more then a handful of Favs at any given show and they currently need a ton of work to become competitive with the other breeds. However my avatar should show the quality I am striving for.

2. The hardy winter laying and decent meat bird Faverolles no longer exist, most flocks are lucky to get 80 eggs a year from first year hens.

3.. I have searched high and low for a source of unrelated Faverolles that have the qualities missing from my own and others flocks- I came up empty, they all can be traced back to the same flock here in Massachusetts, which while bred to the SOP, has some serious shortcomings in the utility fowl department. My own birds originated from that same flock.

4. I am tired of defending my reasons for keeping this beautiful breed and want to work toward bringing it back into the realm of the practical (thus getting my husband off of my case for working with them LOL) I also am tired of having them fall short of what the catalogs claim them to be, something that only serves to HURT the breed.

5. Since importing was a financial impossibility and since I did not want to have to fight a bunch of unknown genetics, I decided early on that my breed of choice for out cross would need to have white skin and a fifth toe in addition to my desired meat and egg qualities... basically that is the Dorking.

6. I also wanted to use the project as an opportunity to promote another worthy breed, which so far has been happening and I refer people interested in Dorkings to the breed club website, Yellow House Farm and this thread on a regular basis.

7. Under no circumstances will ANY birds or eggs be released outside of the project until generation F7 or later, and all birds will have to be culled to the Faverolles SOP before release.

8. Any pure Dorking stock not needed will be given to 4H or FFA kids for showmanship to become ambassadors for the breed, and those birds will have to uphold the standard to be considered for anything other then the freezer- if it isn't a decent bird, at least it will be a decent meal.

 

[Totalcolour]

--April

P.S. Along the same lines of inappropriate sarcasm and total disrespect, both Greenhorn and Total Colour were truly childish to Sandiklaws. If you believe that the plan to outcross Dorkings to improve Faverolles is flawed, then explain your reasoning. Constructive criticism is valuable. But when someone lays out a breeding plan and your only comment is "Oh God" and "X2," that is neither valuable nor constructive. It's belittling and mean, with no explanation. Just an emotional hit and run, unbecoming of properly socialized adults. (BTW, outcrossing is a well-established method of improving vitality in many rare breeds of many domestic species. Many pedigreed species, of which poultry breeding has not yet ascended to, have approved outcrossings listed for each breed that the practice applies to in their SOP. Without outcrossing, we would have lost numerous rare breeds of many species throughout modern history; breeds that were only saved by a few dedicated breeders and well-planned outcrossing -- not by smart*ss comments).

(Darn, I was planning to get through this rant without cussing, but temptation can taint even the best-intentioned among us.)

Ok, criticism. Not personal. A breeding program. It is my firm belief, that anyone doing ANYTHING needs to understand the undertaking before it is undertaken. You can't just decide to be a brain surgeon, until you have the training. Well I suppose you could but it would go nastily sideways in short order.

Same same with chickens: - you can go to fairs, breeders, auctions, and buy some birds, go home, put them in pens and start breeding. You are indeed a breeder. Good one? NOPE.

There are many "puppy" mills based along those lines. Not saying that hat has been written here is the same thing, but not far off for many I suspect.

Improving Faverolles, IMO, should be done with other Favs, not an outcross, because then it isn't really a Faverolles. You can't cross a Terrier with a poodle to get some characteristic and still claim it is a Terrier (or a poodle). Even ten generations along, it is still a MUTT!.So when you talk about outcrossing, yup, I'm against it. It's like cheating. Until a line breeds true it's not pure. And it's really hard to determine if it's pure without genetic testing.

And as long as there are folk who outcross, and don't disclose it, then the breed is no longer pure, and it's a disgrace to the individual breeder, and breed clubs and the industry altogether. It's a LIE.

 

[BlackPanther]

Excellent post, Pysanki!


I think this argument sprang from one big problem --- not being able to communicate tone through text. Things that we believe, that we can put into words, often read fine to us -- but completely differently to others. Sometimes, to others, it sounds critical, spiteful, rude, or downright disgusted -- and I know I have a big problem with this.

YellowHouse, I sincerely apologize to you if you did not intend to be critical. You, as a breeder, do an important job that anyone who loves a rare breed can really respect. Over my time on this thread, I've seen a lot of your posts that contain helpful information. A knowledgeable breeder's experience, when shared, is priceless. I think we would really lose a valuable member if you went into hiding.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Joseph and Greenhorn,
Thank you both for your sincere apologies. I appreciate that you reached out as you did, and accept your apologies fully. I would encourage others to do the same thing.

I cannot speak for others, but I strongly suspect that no one wants either of you to leave this thread. I certainly want your input. This was designed as a thread for everyone, which includes the professional breeder. Joseph, you have a wealth of invaluable information to offer us, to help us improve our breeding and management skills should we chose to do so. And Greenhorn, sharing your journey through the early stages towards professional breeding will help all of us who plan to go there some day. You are both at different stages in your breeding career, and everyone can learn things from you both. But just like doctors use different words and are more direct when they talk to each other than when they talk to a patient, professionals of any group need to use a different language when they talk among themselves than when they talk to a broader audience. Sometimes the language barrier between the professional and the amateur can be just as great as between two people with no common language at all. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't keep trying. I don't think anyone would have gotten upset had you stated that Karen was selling culls. Of course she was -- from a purebred standpoint, all mixed breeds are culls. But here's where the language barrier comes in. To the non-professional, culls are not refuse. They are just birds that have uses other than breeding. To the professional, there may be no other use for birds than breeding better offspring. So to the professional, culls are useless. But the term refuse is not simply neutral to most people; it has very negative connotations.

Clearly it was not your intent to insult or cause pain, or you would not have responded the way you have. Your apologies for the misunderstandings were genuine. Just as genuinely, I would like to apologize if my post caused you to feel unwelcome or unappreciated. It was not my intent to minimize your contributions or to make you leave. We can all learn from you, and later contribute to the breed ourselves, if we chose to do so.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Ok, criticism. Not personal. A breeding program. It is my firm belief, that anyone doing ANYTHING needs to understand the undertaking before it is undertaken. You can't just decide to be a brain surgeon, until you have the training. Well I suppose you could but it would go nastily sideways in short order.

Same same with chickens: - you can go to fairs, breeders, auctions, and buy some birds, go home, put them in pens and start breeding. You are indeed a breeder. Good one? NOPE.

There are many "puppy" mills based along those lines. Not saying that hat has been written here is the same thing, but not far off for many I suspect.

Improving Faverolles, IMO, should be done with other Favs, not an outcross, because then it isn't really a Faverolles. You can't cross a Terrier with a poodle to get some characteristic and still claim it is a Terrier (or a poodle). Even ten generations along, it is still a MUTT!.So when you talk about outcrossing, yup, I'm against it. It's like cheating. Until a line breeds true it's not pure. And it's really hard to determine if it's pure without genetic testing.

And as long as there are folk who outcross, and don't disclose it, then the breed is no longer pure, and it's a disgrace to the individual breeder, and breed clubs and the industry altogether. It's a LIE.

And that is constructive reasoning, and respectful. I would not have objected had that been the original post.

 

[sandiklaws]

Dorkings are one of the parent breeds for Large Fowl Faverolles,so it is more like going back to the source then bringing in another breed... BTW I have the support of my breed club and many LF Faverolles breeders/mentors in my project, I even have an ongoing article in our club newsletter. If you do not have the genes needed in an available population of animals then you have no choice but to go to an outside source... and Faverolles have been suffering from gene depression for several decades, primarally due to their being so few people actually working with them. Our National meet had only 7 birds, a master breeder and one of his buyers. The biggest show in the last 40 years was held recently at the Eastern Poultry Congress, I believe there were 22 birds in all classes, 6 of which were Cackle hatchery stock, another 5 belonged to a woman who had them in a laying only flock- when one of her pullets took best of breed we all begged her to consider taking home a free male... in the end she "loaned" her winning pullet to a breeder in Maine.the remaining birds were all either fro Dick Boulangers flock, or like my hen were directly from it give or take a generation. I was still very pleased my hen took best in her class of 5 out of 3 exhibitors, even though she has never laid more then 2 eggs a week in her entire life (she is 4) and NONE of her sons made it to the freezer for human consumption... although I am certain the dog was pleased with that even if I was not. Breeding for the desired traits quickly leads to major issues due to the lack of diversity in Faverolles gene pool; beardlessness, split wing, fertility issues, vigor (all my second year chicks in one of my pens needed assistance to hatch) and many others will quickly make any Fav flock a nightmare for all but the most dedicated of breeders... so you will have to pardon me if after 8 years of working with them (again, I also briefly had them in the 90's until a common virus killed the entire flock) and many long discussions with breeders who have had them for years, if I am the rebel that goes "outside of the box" to try to fix a problem with the breed I love... I am sure if your breed was as troubled, you would do the same.

 

[Sydney Acres]

After reading YHF's post i figured out this thread is for Dorking lovers. Serious breeders can offer advice but must walk on thin ice while doing so.

If by thin ice you mean politely and respectfully, with the intent to educate instead of insult, then yes. If you mean paranoid that Dorking lovers think every bird is perfect and can't accept constructive criticism, then no.