Barnevelder breeders lets work together and improve the breed

[tls_ranch]

I agree the yellow legs needs to be worked on. I have also heard that peak condition of pullets should be around their 10th egg or so (I'm not exact on that # though). That way you show the pullets before their legs start to fade due to egg production.

All my young birds pretty much have "screaming" yellow legs. The legs do fade after the pullets start laying well and also fade when there is a lack of greens or with a diet higher in soy. I admit my hen's legs tend to be near white during the peak and toward the end of their laying cycle. Most recover the yellow after being broody or after moult and a winter's break. Diet does help..more meat based protien...less so, free access to greens etc. I even found an old quote from the 1930's addressing sooty legs in black barnevelders and how this can be overcome by keeping the birds on grass runs. During the summer, green grass full time is limited in my dry California climate.

Not the most attractive pic (she doesn't have a lump on her neck...it's another bird's tail) But the pullet in this pic shows the normal shade of yellow on my young stock.

 

[Tailfeathers]

Hi Trisha,

Personally, I have been working on getting the lacing back into my males and I actually prefer that over the solid black. I've seen pics of male Barnies from overseas with excellent lacing in their breasts and I find them a strikingly handsome bird. I have seen some increase in the lacing of my pure Barnie males but it's no where close to what it should be. Although, the one RC Barnie that I will be breeding back to it's mother has some really good lacing in it's breast. Since it carries a recessive RC gene and PC gene, I will probably breed it back to my pure Barnie hen and pullet to see if I can get some SC males with nicer lacing.

As for your Barnie pullet, she has real nice looking legs. I agree totally that diet has much to do with keeping the leg color and that they will lighten as they begin to lay and also as they get toward the end of their laying cycle. Having said that, I've got the one hen that retains a real nice deep yellow ochre color all year long. Don't have a clue as to why but you can bet she's a keeper. I've also noticed this same thing in a couple of other breeds that I have. One is a Wyandotte and the other a NH. In fact, the NH hen maintains an almost orange leg all year long. Wish I new why.

I'm assuming by "sooty legs" you are referring to the grayish color often seen on Barnies. Again, I have no idea where that comes from and not being a geneticist, I just can't even offer a suggestion but rather have just gotten rid of all those birds I had and am really focusing on yellow as a breeding priority with my birds now. Everything else seems to be pretty much there now.

I will also add that I'm finding some Barnie eggs now that have pretty decent color. Still not quite as dark as my Wellies but much darker than I've ever had before. I know the Barnie's are the ones laying the eggs because they are almost round and that's been a trait I've had with my Barnies. I'd say they're a little darker than a good RIR - if you know what I mean.

Lastly, let me just say it's good to see y'all on here and hopefully I'll be able to follow this thread more regularly now.

God Bless,

Royce

 

[Dr Bjorn Netland]

Royce,
I am well aware of the APA description, and I think it's too bad it got in there in that form.
According to the reports from breeders in the Netherlands, a laced breast in the male makes it virtually impossible to do a single mating breeding program, as the lacing of the male supposedly does not help the desired lacing in females. Having one run for both male and female show birds should certainly be the ideal, and it was proven by one of the outstanding Dutch breeders some years ago that this goal was achievable with the black breasted males... Whatever it be, the Dutch have their standard reflecting this fact.
Now to the root of the problem:
Horst Greczmiehl (German immigrant in British Columbia, Canada) was the one who submitted the proposed standard to the APA in conjunction with our qualifying show. He was also the breeder who brought the most birds to that meet, along with a couple of other breeders (at least two of them of Dutch background--I believe immigrants) along with myself and Lowell Barber. I am pretty sure Horst submitted a translation of the GERMAN standard, which differs from the Dutch/British one, albeit almost all the male birds shown had black breasts (though I know that a couple of them had VERY broad lacing so that the brown did not show, because I was allowed to handle some of Horst's birds). Again, as is the case with the Welsummers, we have ended up with a confused state, which is most unfortunate.
By far the most numerous (and some would say, the BEST) breeders in Europe are in Germany, and their shows are incredibly impressive, both in number of birds shown and in quality. The types and characteristics specified in the German standard has therefore become what is generally accepted in many other European countries (Denmark and other Scandinavian countries, Poland, France, and others), but not necessarily in the country of origin (in this case the Netherlands for the Barnevelders and the Welsummers) or in Great Britain/Ireland.
The APA standard for the Welsummers was largely an adoptation of the UK/Dutch standards (Horst somehow must have had access to these) whereas the Barnevelders ended up with the lacing of the breast of the male. You're absolutely correct, Royce, this is what our APA standard specifies. I was aware of this early on and discussed it with Horst, but he dismissed the issue as inconsequential because the lacing was so wide, he claimed, that the breast of the male would APPEAR all black. I never did pursue it further at the time because I gave up on the breed shortly afterwards, but then I checked with the Dutch and was told that the black breast in the male was what was desired.
So here is my explanation as to this problem:
The Germans are the dominant poultry breeders in Europe and as such have "taken over" many breeds originating elsewhere (such as, for instance, Wyandottes, New Hampshires, Welsummers, Barnevelders, RIRs, etc.) to such an extent that they show more birds of these breeds than does any other nation. Over time, they have also "set" their own types, colors, etc. Many of the birds recently imported here in North America come from multiple sources -- Germany, Netherlands, UK, France, Denmark, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Hungary, and others -- and come with the divergent standard requirements when such differences exist (consider the Leghorn standards, for instance, with German ('Italiener'), Dutch, UK, French, Scandinavian specifications all at variance with the APA standard at various points). The controversy is here, and it reflects where the birds we imported originated-----and where their breeders' roots were. As for the Barnevelders and Welsummers, many breeders (especially Canadians) have their origins in places such as Germany, Poland, Scandinavia, etc. I believe. Naturally, these folk would like to see the breeds proceed along the lines that they have been used to. This problem arose, for instance, when it came to a revision of the APA standard for the Welsummers, when the German immigrants argued in favor of a much lower tail angle and were able to get it lowered to 60 degrees from the original 75 (but, thank Odin, not one like the German standard, which would make the bird look like a RIR with Welsummer color).
We really need to come to an agreement here in North America about which way to turn. In my opinion, we should always follow the lead of the people in the country where the breeds originated (as they are doing, I think, in the case of the Marans). Then again, that is only my OPINION, and I cannot claim any special knowledge of where the truth lies or where it should be; it should be in the hands of the reputable breeders, and it should be settled AS SOON AS POSSIBLE because continued confusion serves nobody, breeders, judges, or plain fanciers.
Just sayin' ---- and a happy 2013 to y'all.
Regards,
Bjorn

I think there may be some misunderstanding about what the SOP states. So, while hoping I ain't breaking any rules or getting myself into any trouble, let me quote here from the 2010 APA SOP that just came out last year:

From Page 142 of the SOP

BARNEVELDERS

The breed was originated in the district of Barneveld, Holland, with the brown eggs as one of the chief attractions. At first the birds were of mixed markings, some being double laced, others single laced, while the majority follwed the stippled partridge pattern. Two varieties were standardized, the double laced partridge and the stippled partridge, but the former gradually came to the top and is the popular variety in Holland today.

Now, from pages 35 & 36 of the SOP describing the color "Partridge" in the male and then female respectively:

Male

HEAD: Web of feather, lustrous rich red
NECK: Hackle -- web of feather, lustrous greenish black with a narrow lacing of medium shade of rich, brilliant red, shaft black
BACK: Back, including Saddle -- web of feathers, lustrous, greenish black with narrow facing of a medium shade of rich brilliant red, a slight shafting of rich red permissible. Rich brilliant red predominating on surface of upper back; saddle matching with hackle color.
BREAST: Lustrous greenish black
(Other parts of body omitted here to save time and space)

Female

HEAD: Deep reddish bay
NECK: Hackle -- black, slightly penciled with deep reddish bay and laced with reddish bay
BACK: Deep reddish bay, with distinct black pencilings.
BREAST: Deep reddish bay with distinct black pencilings.
(Again, other parts of body omitted here to save time and space)

Now back to Page 142 of SOP for comparison to the above:

COLOR - MALE

HEAD: Each feather black with slight reddish brown edging and reddish brown shafts, tips of feather black
NECK: Each feather black with slight reddish brown edging and reddish brown shafts, tips of feather black
BACK: Each feather reddish brown with very wide lacing of lustrous, greenish black
Saddle - Each feather black with slight reddish brown edging and reddish brown shafts, tips of feathers black
BREAST: Each feather reddish brown with a sharply defined lacing of lustrous, greenish black
(Other body parts omitted)

So, one can see that the APA SOP does require lacing in the breast of the Barnie male.

COLOR - FEMALE

HEAD: Plumage, lustrous, greenish black
NECK: Lustrous, greenish black. Front of neck - same as breast.
BACK: Each fether reddish brown, free of black peppering, with a well defined outer lacing of lustrous, greenish black and a well definted inner lacking of lustrous, greenish black. The outer lacing to be distinct yet not so heavy as to give a black appearance to the bird in the show pen.
BREAST: Each feather reddish brown, free of black peppering, with a well defined outer lacing of lustrous, greenish black and a well defined inner lacing of lustrous, greenish black. The outer lacing to be distinct yet not so heavy as to give a black appearance to the bird in the show pen.

So hopefully this will help clarify why the Barnie is considered a "Partridge" colored bird and how that applies to the specific coloration of the breed. And it should also correct any misunderstandings about whether our SOP requires lacing in the breasts of the male.

God Bless,

Royce

 

[Tailfeathers]

Hi Bjorn! I trust you had a great Christmas and brought in the new year well. Here's wishing you a terrific 2013.

I didn't "quote" your post as it was pretty long and I think I'll be the one directly following it. That being said, I have heard pretty much the same thing from Erhard and I believe you told me the same thing the last few times we talked. Which reminds me, we should talk again soon! It's too late now but I'll try to give you a call sometime here in the near future. Hope all is well with you now. Anyways, I heard that Horst was the guy with the most birds there and had the most influence on what the SOP wound up saying despite some debate.

And personally, I also like the idea of having our SOP reflect that of the country of origin. But as you said, it now appears that - in the case of Barnies & Wellies - the Germans seem to be much more involved with the breed than the Dutch. Which makes me wonder, what do we do with that? The other question I have is - with regards to the pure black breast - what happens when the judge picks up the bird and notices the brown/red feather that is hidden at a distance by the overly wide lacing? Obviously if we modify the SOP, those birds are then going to be marked down.

Additionally, I have to defer to your experience and those overseas with regard to the single vs. double matings in order to get good males and females. I simply don't have the time, space, energy, or interest in setting up double-mating pens for males and females. If I had to do that, I'd have to given up breeding and showing one of my other three breeds and I'm not ready to do that just yet.

Lastly, as you know - and most on here - I've often said I'm not the brightest bulb in the socket when it comes to breeding. I have some basic fundamental knowledge of genetics and breeding and a lot of what I do is by trial and error. Much of my breeding program consists of working with what I have (i.e. keeping a closed flock so as to not bring in any surprises and then linebreeding while keeping the best records I can, then evaluating the results, and setting up next year's breeding plan accordingly) and then from there it pretty much goes like this: 1) If it works do it again and 2) if it don't work, don't do it anymore.

The only other thing I would add is this. If in fact it is truly impossible to get good lacing in the males and also good lacing in their female offspring, then I would say there is a legitimate reason to ask for a change to the SOP to prevent an absolute imperative to double breed. If, on the other hand, it is not an impossibility but rather an issue of what is easier, then I would be opposed to it. My reasoning for this is simple. It's called the Standard Of "Perfection" for a reason. Perfection is not supposed to be "easy". True, the perfect bird will never be achieved but - again, for me, personally speaking - the challenge of obtaining something that is not easily achieved is something that I find very rewarding. In fact, even though my Barnies have taken BB along with either Champion or Reserve Continental at the last six shows I've attended, I still get my greatest satisfaction from seeing some improvement in them each year. And not from what the judge writes on the coop card.

I would also echo your sentiments about this issue needing to be resolved pretty quickly as it does not do anyone justice to have it continue. From my experience the Barnevelder is not a bird that gets much attention or has many dedicated, committed, serious breeders who are devoted to achieving a Best of Show or Champion Large Fowl. For whatever reason it seems as though three of my four breeds fall in that category. I would like to see a Barnie rise to that acclaim before die. Whether it be one of my birds (which is VERY doubtful) or someone else's. But it is going to take a LOT of work to beat out a White Rock or Wyandotte or a solid colored bird of any number of other breeds. I'm confident it can be done but a lot of dedicated and committed people are going to have to step up for that too happen. Perhaps settling this issue soon will help.

And I would also agree with you wholeheartedly in saying this is just my OPINION. I cannot claim any special knowledge of where the truth lies or where it should be either. And I certainly don't come anywhere's close to having the experience that you do.

God Bless,

 

[Dr Bjorn Netland]

Oh, what beautiful lacing!!! I hope she'll get her tail a bit higher, but even if she doesn't, that is ONE SUPERIOR PULLET. Rarely seen anything that good. Congrats.

 

[tls_ranch]

Thanks Dr Netland

She is actually not my favorite

I just used her pic to show the yellow legs. I do like her body and size. Her tail might come up a bit because she's so young and doesn't even have her tail grown in from juvie moult. I'll try to get some pics of some of my other barnie pullets too. I will be doing another "cull" soon since most the pullets are at POL and once they start laying I'll evaluate them for egg color etc. I gotta convince my husband to let me build a small breeder pen/coop with trap nests just to pair up the birds I want. That way I'll have more control than flock mating.


Trisha

 

[AyaBlodgett]

Finally I have a picture that might be sort of good. It is hard to get them in just the right pose. By the time I click they have moved. This is my Johan pair. I figured out that is was the rooster that was eating the eggs. I moved them to a different house with a nest away from the floor when the roo hangs out. She can fly up to the nest, it is fairly dark.with three dark fake eggs, and when she is done she flies back down to go out and eat grass. Phew! I thot I was going to be out of a pair for awhile. Aya

I wil try again to get a better picture of the hen. The Rooster will not" pose" to make the U across the back. How do you get them to stand up tall. And I think his tail is kind of droopy. The legs are yellow but have a little red on them on the inside. Might be from all the rain? Not sure. Any hints? ideas?

 

[elizmartin]

As a newby, i do have 2 roos, one darker and one lighter like Ayas....The lighter shows a bit of breast lacing the darker (has some Johan breeding) barely and think the darker or lighter of the roos reflect that.....I agree with Royces last statement.

I also don't favor double breeding because i think it complicates the future of any breed especially when new folks come in. If left to nature most revert to natural selection of survival qualities, less on coloration unless it is a protective coloration. (not that they are wild, sorry)......I too hope that some kind of decision can be made to lay this to rest...maybe to broaden the definition to make one more important and defining, but not limiting......If breast are to be black,,,,,,,,black is black.....there are alot of flocks with roos with non laced but not solid black breasts too........

 

[faykokoWV]

Not the best picture, but I'm trying to determine, which is the preferred color of lacing, the lighter hen on the left or the darker on the right. also, silly question, but how many points do you count on the roo? I think too many?

 

[tls_ranch]

Finally I have a picture that might be sort of good. It is hard to get them in just the right pose. By the time I click they have moved. This is my Johan pair. I figured out that is was the rooster that was eating the eggs. I moved them to a different house with a nest away from the floor when the roo hangs out. She can fly up to the nest, it is fairly dark.with three dark fake eggs, and when she is done she flies back down to go out and eat grass. Phew! I thot I was going to be out of a pair for awhile. Aya I wil try again to get a better picture of the hen. The Rooster will not" pose" to make the U across the back. How do you get them to stand up tall. And I think his tail is kind of droopy. The legs are yellow but have a little red on them on the inside. Might be from all the rain? Not sure. Any hints? ideas?

Aya, it is hard to judge a bird from the pics, but I do like the fullness of you Roos tail. He does have a bit more red coloring to his hackles and saddle, but many Johan's do. The "red" you see on his legs is normal. It's just "rooster hormones" that causes that. Trisha