Barnevelder breeders lets work together and improve the breed

[tls_ranch]

I won't address each point yet but here are the facts as I know them.

1. There was no mistake in the Standard description. These things are well thought out and checked and double checked. The APA does not just automatically put things in their Standard based on descriptions they are given. The APA description does not agree with the Standard description of the country of origin.....but that is not unusual. The Barnie description in the APA does agrees with the Australian, German and British Standards. .I don't think those Standards were in error either.

2. Not all countries agree on plumage or body type descriptions. The British take liberties with our American breeds and we don't have the same description of their Orps ether. There are many breeds that don't agree with the country of origin's descriptions. I'm not sure why, but that is the way it is...it is not a mistake. Someone might think it is...but it isn't.

3. Anything in the APA SOP can be changed, but it would have to have a [COLOR=000000]compelling[/COLOR] reason. I have been contacted by an interested party, but she has not given me enough reason to even do any research.......yet.
Our Committee will  not act on hearsay or speculation, you would have to have lots of documentation that can be verified. No "he says" stuff.

4. A qualifying meeet was held as it always is and there have to be fifty (50) good specimens in C,H,K,P classes, divided into equal classes, so obviously there were cock birds judged in the qualifying meet. If the chest color was not correct the breed would not have been admitted.....it's not a mistake. The breed has to breed true to be accepted.

5 The APA has never changed anything in the SOP because it was easier to breed. Double mating is just a quick way to get there.....kind of the lazy man's route you might say. I have used it, but it was ever for the long haul. Descriptions are based on the finished product.....not on how you got there or not for an easier way to meet a Standard.

 
6. 99% of my interaction with Standard changes is to have the change meet someones existing birds rather than what the SOP actually says

Walt Leonard
Chairman of the APA Standard Committee.

Cool, thanks for the clarification.  I wasn't too far off at least.

Well, never mind then at least I tried. I was just following the advice posted by Bjorn Netland who seemed well respected ( maybe i was mistaken). Since most of the original breeders are dead now and they didn't fix their own arguments over the standard...Then I guess the current standard is set in stone. All we have is hearsay left behind to go on. When I look on the Internet for images of Barnevelders .....I cringe at all the variation. Going by the country of origin's standard seemed like a good idea as they spent years and years studying this issue. But who am I to say....I'm just a stay at home mother who someday wants her children to show. Maybe I will just order the hatchery special and let my kids pick their favorite for the local fair. For my "backyard barnevelders" I will stick to breeding to the Dutch standard, it makes the most sense.

Trisha

PS sorry to be so negative to say the least, but today hasn't been a very good day for me. I am also tired of getting "attacked" about my own birds and mental abilities and knowledge of breeding. So, I will just " do my own thing" with my birds like everyone else seems to be doing.

 

[Tncowgirl1903]

My blue double laced barnvelder rooster

 

[chicksnthestiks]

Well, never mind then at least I tried. I was just following the advice posted by Bjorn Netland who seemed well respected ( maybe i was mistaken). Since most of the original breeders are dead now and they didn't fix their own arguments over the standard...Then I guess the current standard is set in stone. All we have is hearsay left behind to go on. When I look on the Internet for images of Barnevelders .....I cringe at all the variation. Going by the country of origin's standard seemed like a good idea as they spent years and years studying this issue. But who am I to say....I'm just a stay at home mother who someday wants her children to show. Maybe I will just order the hatchery special and let my kids pick their favorite for the local fair. For my "backyard barnevelders" I will stick to breeding to the Dutch standard, it makes the most sense.

Trisha

PS sorry to be so negative to say the least, but today hasn't been a very good day for me. I am also tired of getting "attacked" about my own birds and mental abilities and knowledge of breeding. So, I will just " do my own thing" with my birds like everyone else seems to be doing.

Trisha, you have beautiful birds. Keep doing what you are!

 

[Outlier]

Well, never mind then at least I tried. I was just following the advice posted by Bjorn Netland who seemed well respected ( maybe i was mistaken). Since most of the original breeders are dead now and they didn't fix their own arguments over the standard...Then I guess the current standard is set in stone. All we have is hearsay left behind to go on. When I look on the Internet for images of Barnevelders .....I cringe at all the variation. Going by the country of origin's standard seemed like a good idea as they spent years and years studying this issue. But who am I to say....I'm just a stay at home mother who someday wants her children to show. Maybe I will just order the hatchery special and let my kids pick their favorite for the local fair. For my "backyard barnevelders" I will stick to breeding to the Dutch standard, it makes the most sense.

Trisha

PS sorry to be so negative to say the least, but today hasn't been a very good day for me. I am also tired of getting "attacked" about my own birds and mental abilities and knowledge of breeding. So, I will just " do my own thing" with my birds like everyone else seems to be doing.

For what it's worth, I do agree with you. We should honor the history of the breed and follow the country of origin standard. Good luck with your female line. If anyone else can make the lacing in the male work without double mating I applaud them. I just haven't seen enough evidence to be convinced that it's possible. Hopefully someone can share some pics. I know that getting the lacing really sharp is tough anyway. You may want to experiment with getting the lacing into the males, but preserve the original female line if it proves to be an exercise in futility. If the Germans feel they need to double mate, this may be the case.

 

[fowlman01]

For what it's worth, I do agree with you. We should honor the history of the breed and follow the country of origin standard. Good luck with your female line. If anyone else can make the lacing in the male work without double mating I applaud them. I just haven't seen enough evidence to be convinced that it's possible. Hopefully someone can share some pics. I know that getting the lacing really sharp is tough anyway. You may want to experiment with getting the lacing into the males, but preserve the original female line if it proves to be an exercise in futility. If the Germans feel they need to double mate, this may be the case.

What to the German and British birds loo like? Are they good quality? .....aside from the male color, what to the Danish birds look like these days?

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

Well, never mind then at least I tried. I was just following the advice posted by Bjorn Netland who seemed well respected ( maybe i was mistaken). Since most of the original breeders are dead now and they didn't fix their own arguments over the standard...Then I guess the current standard is set in stone. All we have is hearsay left behind to go on. When I look on the Internet for images of Barnevelders .....I cringe at all the variation. Going by the country of origin's standard seemed like a good idea as they spent years and years studying this issue. But who am I to say....I'm just a stay at home mother who someday wants her children to show. Maybe I will just order the hatchery special and let my kids pick their favorite for the local fair. For my "backyard barnevelders" I will stick to breeding to the Dutch standard, it makes the most sense.

Trisha

PS sorry to be so negative to say the least, but today hasn't been a very good day for me. I am also tired of getting "attacked" about my own birds and mental abilities and knowledge of breeding. So, I will just " do my own thing" with my birds like everyone else seems to be doing.

You did try and you had some good information that was interesting. It was just not enough to make a change to the SOP. If Bjorn feels strongly about this, maybe he can fill in the blank spaces. I know the others who were involved in this and though they are not here now, I had a lot of respect for them and find it unlikely that not only did they make a mistake, but that mistake got through the qualifying process.

If you look at chicken pictures online you will find lots of poor examples of many breeds. The Barnies are a neglected breed and the chances of finding near perfect specimens now are unlikely.....but only because there are not enough serious/accomplished breeders working on them....yet. I am really surprised that no one is wondering WHY the British and Germans and everyone except the country of origin has the same laced chest in the male. It is easy to say things about double mating especially when most folks on BYC have no idea what it means, but it is immaterial as double mating is used all the time and is not the big deal that some would like us to think.

If you read it online, it does not make it true. I can't tell you how many times I have similar arguments about Standard descriptions. Most of the time it is because the folks have the birds that don't meet the description and the rest of the time it is someone who thinks it should be another way and wants to change it.....without compelling documentation.

Marans, Orps, Australorps and Houdan's are just a few of the breeds where the APA has a different breed or color description than the country of origin., We have people now that want to change the New Hamp Standard to fit the GERMAN version of the New Hamp...and the NH was created in the USA. It is what happens and is the reason why the SOP should be hard to change.

Don't take this personally Trisha....you were sent to do someone else's work....or maybe it only appears that way to me. No one else has ever officially asked for a change of the male chest color, nor have I ever heard that the APA description was a "mistake" until I read your message. I have been an APA officer for more than 30 years and have not even begun to see it all, but I do know about most of the SOP admissions since the early 80's.

Bottom line is that folks should raise the birds to look they want them to look.....but if you show them in the US, they should meet the APA/ABA standards.

Walt.

 

[Tailfeathers]

I won't address each point yet but here are the facts as I know them.

1. There was no mistake in the Standard description. These things are well thought out and checked and double checked. The APA does not just automatically put things in their Standard based on descriptions they are given. The APA description does not agree with the Standard description of the country of origin.....but that is not unusual. The Barnie description in the APA does agrees with the Australian, German and British Standards. .I don't think those Standards were in error either.

2. Not all countries agree on plumage or body type descriptions. The British take liberties with our American breeds and we don't have the same description of their Orps ether. There are many breeds that don't agree with the country of origin's descriptions. I'm not sure why, but that is the way it is...it is not a mistake. Someone might think it is...but it isn't.

3. Anything in the APA SOP can be changed, but it would have to have a compelling reason. I have been contacted by an interested party, but she has not given me enough reason to even do any research.......yet.
Our Committee will not act on hearsay or speculation, you would have to have lots of documentation that can be verified. No "he says" stuff.

4. A qualifying meeet was held as it always is and there have to be fifty (50) good specimens in C,H,K,P classes, divided into equal classes, so obviously there were cock birds judged in the qualifying meet. If the chest color was not correct the breed would not have been admitted.....it's not a mistake. The breed has to breed true to be accepted.

5 The APA has never changed anything in the SOP because it was easier to breed. Double mating is just a quick way to get there.....kind of the lazy man's route you might say. I have used it, but it was ever for the long haul. Descriptions are based on the finished product.....not on how you got there or not for an easier way to meet a Standard.

6. 99% of my interaction with Standard changes is to have the change meet someones existing birds rather than what the SOP actually says

Walt Leonard
Chairman of the APA Standard Committee.

Thank you Walt!! That lays it out about as succinctly as could be. #1 says exactly what I was trying to say but much better. The SOP isn't put together willy nilly. I am so glad you stated "The Barnie description in the APA does agrees with the Australian, German and British Standards." I was not aware that our SOP agreed with those three or that those three were in agreement. That's good info to know. It also makes more sense now that our SOP would align with those too because two of the breeders are/were German. And, as I said before, it's my understanding that Horst Grecmiel (who was a judge) carried the most weight/influence when it came to the final written Standard.

I might add, and not because Walt doesn't know this but just because it wasn't mentioned, that not only does there have to be at least 50 birds as Walt laid out but there must be conformity. Just ask the BCM folks as I think they had to have 3 different qualifying meets. I know they had 2 but I think 3 before there was enough conformity for them to be accepted.

Btw, on a side note, I talked with my friend tonight who was one of the 5 breeders at the qualifying meet. He said he does not double mate. And, interestingly enough, he said he's got a bantam Barnie male right now that has really nice breast lacing and he didn't get it by double mating.

God Bless,

 

[Tailfeathers]

Well, never mind then at least I tried. I was just following the advice posted by Bjorn Netland who seemed well respected ( maybe i was mistaken). Since most of the original breeders are dead now and they didn't fix their own arguments over the standard...Then I guess the current standard is set in stone. All we have is hearsay left behind to go on. When I look on the Internet for images of Barnevelders .....I cringe at all the variation. Going by the country of origin's standard seemed like a good idea as they spent years and years studying this issue. But who am I to say....I'm just a stay at home mother who someday wants her children to show. Maybe I will just order the hatchery special and let my kids pick their favorite for the local fair. For my "backyard barnevelders" I will stick to breeding to the Dutch standard, it makes the most sense.

Trisha

PS sorry to be so negative to say the least, but today hasn't been a very good day for me. I am also tired of getting "attacked" about my own birds and mental abilities and knowledge of breeding. So, I will just " do my own thing" with my birds like everyone else seems to be doing.

Nothing I said should be construed as disrespecting Bjorn or anyone else on this thread for that matter. As to Bjorn, I specifically stated that I certainly respect him but just disagree with him on this one issue. The same goes for you Trisha, Andy, and anyone else.

I'm not sure if "most" of the original breeders are dead now or not. Only Lowell and Horst have gone on. Bjorn and Erhard have not. The other has always been a mystery. All I know is that he was from OR at one time but he seems to have disappeared and from what I've been able to determine never really wanted to be in any kind of limelight.

Trisha, if the comment about being "attacked" was directed at me, I want you to know that nothing I said should have been taken as an attack and it certainly was NOT meant to be so. You stated several things as "facts" and I simply questioned your sources. I did so for two reasons. Number 1, I've learned a long time ago that some "facts" just can't be backed up. How many times have you heard a politician say, "The fact of the matter is..." or "The fact is..."? Not saying you would do that, just saying it's something I'm accustomed to doing. Secondly, as I said before, I've done a fair amount of reading about Barnies and I've never come across anything like that.

I certainly have never attacked your birds and if anyone wants to take the time, it was not too many pages back that I specifically stated the leg color of your birds were "ideal". I've always said you've got nice birds. And for what it's worth, I doubt too many folks would be paying $100 for a dozen eggs that came from crappy looking birds! And lastly, I let my birds speak to my "mental abilities and knowledge of breeding". I would suggest that your birds do as well.

I hope you will rethink your last comment, "So, I will just " do my own thing" with my birds like everyone else seems to be doing." I've been breeding Barnies for some time now and one of the greatest "rewards" I've achieved was a comment by Eliz (she comes on here from time to time) that I just happened to overhear when she told one of her friends that my birds all appear to look just alike and there is great conformity between them. I've already stated on here that I am breeding to the SOP. And I've taken BB the last 7 shows in a row that I attended with Reserve Continental a few times. With both males and females. I don't say that to be prideful or boastful but rather just to say that I must be doing something right and it's a FAR cry from "doing my own thing".

I would also add that my friend, one of the original breeders and at the qualifying meet, would probably take exception to that comment as well. Just because you "tried and failed" at getting the SOP changed is really no reason to dis the rest of us.

God Bless,

 

[pickledchicken]

Trisha hang there I think you have done wonders for the breed. My question about the leg color was not an attack it's just that I could see a very noticeable difference in them. I have two lines of Barnies here to compare and as most of us I'm sure have spent countless hours searching the web and browsing Barnie pics and I was only wanting to compare notes. My only goal was to just bring it out and discuss it ( Barnevelder Breeders Lets Work Together ) I just wanted to know how others felt and what direction I might wanna move in.

Royce I had always heard that the yellow leg thing popping up in some of the other breeds I read about on here was a tough thing to correct. I might have misunderstood or been misinformed. If it is sex-linked recessive than I am perfectly OK with the leg color I have now. One must pic his battles, no point in me beating my head on that wall.

I too have been selecting for cleaner chest on the males and from what I have seen in Trisha's birds and in my flock and others breeding this way there seems to be some validity to this type of male selection. In my very first culling of males I had based my selection on this very information as did the breeder of my line before me. I continually see an improvement in lacing on my hens and Trisha's as well.. What I have really noticed is that the lacing is sharper and holds it's sharp define further back into the tail area where most fall apart.

I find a nice male Barnie strolling the green grass a wonderful sight to see but the nice well laced hen will always take the cake for me. I have been to a couple shows, granted it wasn't the Nationals or a Barnevelder meet but APA sanctioned nonetheless. If a clean breasted male produces Champ Continental hens then I'm fine with this. In my limited showing experience ( two shows ) I still have plenty to learn but I need to suit up and show up and that I intend to do. With Champ Continental, Reserve Continental, RV, BV, BB having been achieved with only two shows I don't see me changing anything soon. I have seen lacing on the males and as stated in another post they are either so widely laced they appear solid or they tend to be choppy and not very well defined, I just prefer the cleaner solid look especially in the blue cock.

A breed and or variety must breed true and if I have to do double mating's to achieve SQ birds I don't know that I could get ok with that in my head. Again that's just me personally and my demon to tend with, but there is something to be said about the glory of having a flock that does well without all the double mating's.

This thread is a wealth of information and I truly enjoy coming here and comparing notes and viewing all the different takes on this wonderful breed. I to as most of us I'm sure have felt like Trisha. If we all are asked to paint a red rose each painting would impart something different from it's creator a piece of his or her own soulfulness and personal light. This is also reflected in our birds there is a part of us in each of our flocks and that is sometimes hard to standardize. The one thing I do feel is standard for all of us today is our passion for the BARNEVELDER.

 

[tls_ranch]

There is no US Barnevelder club and the BYC forum is the closest thing to one. Barnevelders have nearly been forgotten since being accepted to the APA. What is going to happen if more people start showing them again?

1991 was a long time ago, but not as long ago as the 1920's. Aren't there archives at the APA? Were there any pictures taken at the original qualifying meet? 50+ birds and new APA breed...any pictures, articles? Who was the 5th breeder and doesn't it has to be in the records somewhere? There has to be 5 breeders to get a breed accepted right? Lots of questions.......

Oh and one more...

Which is correct and would place highest at a show?...they are all laced from one extreme to the other. No wonder the Dutch spent so much time researching this.






I don't have the time or now even the desire to dig up and post all the history and old article clippings about why the British standard calls for laced breasts. I already posted some of it months ago here on the BYC, so look it up yourself if you want. I can't read German, so I didn't try to dig up any info on why the German standard calls for lacing.

I also wasn't accusing Royce of "attacking" me, but I have been getting some really mean comments outside of the BYC. Mostly regarding my "blue wyandotte mutts". "Doing my own thing" just means breeding to my own preferences (like so many others are doing), not an insult to the APA, Royce, Horst etc. So what if I breed a "pullet breeder" line or to the Dutch standard. I want to focus on breeding outstanding hens...is there a problem with that other than double mating being the lazy way of meeting the standard?

I found some more sites with info about the history and breeding of the Barnevelder last night from ever thing from tips on how to breed all colors of barnevelders, lacing and history (said to be largely misleading) of the egg color. It's interesting to say the least to learn even more about how the Barnevelder breed and the newer colors came about. I also found plenty of pics of nice Dutch birds to reference for my breeding.

Trisha