Barnevelder breeders lets work together and improve the breed

[flocknfoal]

This is a very interesting discussion. Thank you all and I hope it continues in the sense of clarifying what the standard is and why. I'm too new to chicken and Barnevelder breeding to add anything to the conversation, but I do appreciate those with knowledge sharing.

A few posts back Trisha asked how much lacing is required in order for the breast to be considered laced? My blues have quite a bit of lacing on the breast, but the blacks not so much. I know there is so much more than breast color in the standard. I wish there were pictures clearly showing the correct and incorrect standard for different features based on the American SOP for Barnevelders.

With that in mind, I really would love to have some feedback on the pictures below. If you could keep just one of the blacks which would you choose (Row 1, Row 2, or Row 3) and specifically what are the best features and what should be improved on them?




Same question for the blues - Row 1 or Row 2?



Thank you!

 

[faykokoWV]

flocknfoal - I love the roo bottom row far right


regarding the chest lacing, I'll join in and share my opinion - I have two lines of black barnevelders - one line is Johan lines (several generations removed from the original) and the other is pure vB lines (first generation from Ledford). The roosters in the vB line have much heavier chest lacing - not as dense as the lacing in Royce's video, but what would be consider 70-80% laced. I have noticed though that the lacing seems to become more sparse the older they get. I think Ledford did a great job achieving excellent lacing on the hens while maintaining a majority of the lacing on the roosters. we all have opinions, but the SOP was written as a guide. I've never shown and we don't have shows in my state, but as a breeder, my goal is to breed towards the SOP. When selecting a rooster (or hen) for breeding I always want to choose the ones that meets the SOP best.

I hate to bring another breed in here, but there is a group writing a SOP for CLB right now. Its been interesting to watch, since most of the birds in this country don't meet the SOP as written in other countries. One of the biggest discussions was "do we create the SOP to match the birds that exist here now, or do we write the SOP to match what the birds should look like" the decision was made to write the SOP to what the birds should look like, even though the majority of us won't be able to meet that SOP any time soon. (if I'm wrong on that, please someone participating in that correct me) I think this was the right decision, and validates that even if it seems unattainable, the SOP should always be our breeding goal.

I'm so thankful for the discussions on here, I learn so much from reading them!!!!

 

[Outlier]

I want to really thank Andy for his inputs in this discussion and for his ability to cool off the tone of the exchanges. I really didn't mean to heat things up if I did. Thank you Trisha for your continued dedication as a breeder and for your useful insights. And thank you Walt for attempting to clarify things from the standpoint of the how's and why's breed standards end up the way they do and how they might be changed. I certainly learned a lot.

I want to try to kind of put everything that I have read together and kind of "think out loud" here. This has been a great discussion. So from what I have gathered, the APA doesn't concern itself with the country of origin standard when it accepts a proposed standard. That makes the argument that the Dutch standard (country of origin) doesn't agree with the APA standard irrelevant.

We seem to be suffering from a lack of verifiable information regarding the breeding of the lacing in this breed. Yeah there are a lot of experienced breeders who have weighed in, but it seems that the testimony given is largely conflicted. Some say you need the black breast in the males to get good lacing in the females and others have said that they have laced breasts in the males and have good lacing in the females. I guess the next question is how good? Is it possible that females out of males with laced breast can have "pretty good" lacing but that the quality is limited due to the genetic of the laced males while only females out of males with black breast have the potential to have "outstanding" lacing? Could it also be possible that you can get females of equal quality out of either type of male? It may just be harder with that laced breast in the males. If someone could prove this by providing some good quality pics, it would be extremely helpful. Unfortunately I don't know that we really have that kind of quality here yet to prove it.

However, even if we could prove that the black breast is the only way to get outstanding lacing in the females, would that even change anything? Proving the necessity for double mating to meet the current standard doesn't seem to be grounds for changing it. Actually in light of all the information provided, I can't think of any way that anyone could ever change any standard. Breed standards just seem too arbitrary, and if there was a qualifying meet, that shows that the standard is attainable (that is if it was done right).

I think I need a relatively recent example of a standard that was changed, and what the extenuating circumstances were.

 

[flocknfoal]

Thanks faykokoWV - each row has four pictures of the same roo. There are three black roos in the first set of pictures and two blue roos in the second group of pictures.

They all seem to have fairly bright yellow legs, but the body shapes, wings, and colors are all so different. I just don't know what I'm looking for. The second one of the blacks appears to have better lacing on the chest, but he holds his tail mostly flat.

And the two blue roos have such different coloring. The first has so much more red-brown in the chest. The second one is a lot darker with more blue. I have no idea which is better.

 

[fowlman01]

Hi everyone,
sorry for jumping in this thread, but I don't stop by BYC much, and a friend sent me a link to this thread.

I live in New Zealand, so don't have any skin in your argument, but maybe I have something that is of value to you guys

I breed Barnevelders, am a judge & on the standards committee/council here and in a few months NZ will have a revised standard printed. The Barnevelder standard has been revised, some colours/varieties added and one existing colour completely re-worked.

Personally, I am not a fan of the british standard for Barnevelders, it's a bit confused and confusing and up until now we have (along with Australia) have adopted the British standard as the template.

However, the males' chest lacing is to remain, remembering it is just one sentence, and I think you will find you might need to revise the hackle and the saddle marking of the male aswell. Also the wording is adequately vague enough to not exclude very thick lacing, but a very open chest laced male will show other faults in the saddle, hackle, coverts a decent judge should pick this up, and its these sorts of males that do not breed nicely double laced females.

But my advice would be just start to show the males as they are. I have won best barnevelder in show with 'pullet breeding' males, so show yours, alongside some females, this is the best way to affect change - from the ground up, rather than a top down directive.

I am very surprised that no one responded to this post.

Walt

 

[Happy Chooks]

I too am thankful for this discussion. I don't have much to add, but I am reading and learning all I can.

I am also working with Welsummers, and it has been discussed in the past about the difference between the Dutch and Brittish Standard on them as well. I point this out not to cause further issues, but that it isn't an isolated occurrence with this breed. Is there a perfect bird? I don't think so - there is always something to work on. We all, as breeders, make the choices that we feel are best for the breed going forward. And in doing so, we will learn from each other.

Until this year, the Barnevelder was a breed that wasn't considered "popular", which is part of why I chose them to work with. I'm not interested in the current year's "fad" chicken. Goodness knows I've had plenty of setbacks and chances to give up on this breed, but I'm still here.

 

[pickledchicken]

Quote: Walt I sent him a PM asking for pics or anything else he could contribute. I asked him to take a look at my pics and see if he would critique them for us. I would be open to all the critisim in the world if it's for the betterment of the breed and everyone learns something.

I am certaninly not concerned with changing any standards to fit my birds, but when It came time to culling the only info I could find talked about the better lacing coming from under a clean chested Roo. This like I say was also the thinking of the breeder I got my birds from so I went with what I had.
I am getting very nice lacing I feel but haven't tried breeding in the other direction. I plan on doing that as well just so I can see and document my results and findings. Nicely laced hens with limited culling would be my end goal.

The Barnies have been out of the spotlight for a long time and I do agree with his comment about changing things from the ground up and not the top down. I feel we can drag this out forever we have to show them !!! Walt might I ask of you in your opinion what shows this fall would be best for a judging of our Barnie's where they could get some good consideration and evaluation from judges familiar with the breed.

Chad

 

[Happy Chooks]

Quote:
I would love to see some pictures of their birds.

 

[fowlman01]

Walt I sent him a PM asking for pics or anything else he could contribute. I asked him to take a look at my pics and see if he would critique them for us. I would be open to all the critisim in the world if it's for the betterment of the breed and everyone learns something.

I am certaninly not concerned with changing any standards to fit my birds, but when It came time to culling the only info I could find talked about the better lacing coming from under a clean chested Roo. This like I say was also the thinking of the breeder I got my birds from so I went with what I had.
I am getting very nice lacing I feel but haven't tried breeding in the other direction. I plan on doing that as well just so I can see and document my results and findings. Nicely laced hens with limited culling would be my end goal.

The Barnies have been out of the spotlight for a long time and I do agree with his comment about changing things from the ground up and not the top down. I feel we can drag this out forever we have to show them !!! Walt might I ask of you in your opinion what shows this fall would be best for a judging of our Barnie's where they could get some good consideration and evaluation from judges familiar with the breed.

Chad

Chad,
I haven't had a lot of time to check out the breeding principles of the Barnies double laced color, but here is what I have found.....which is different than what I have read here. Silver penciled and partridge are two colors with double lacing in the females. Double mating is used all the time in these two colors.........now the surprising thing is this.....they use the males with lacing or spots in the breast instead of the clear black breasted males which the SOP calls for to produce the double laced females. That seems to be in conflict with what folks are telling me here. Most of you that are reading this thread are fairly new to this and are going by what you read online......which is about the only source other than old books on the subject.

I don't think folks here in the US have tested this breeding enough to know what really works here and are going more by what they have read. Generally this is a safe bet, but this breed is relatively new to the US and has not had a lot of folks actually breeding to improve it.....thus not a lot of experienced breeders. What works for us here may be quite different than what works for the Dutch, as more than likely their genetic makeup is different than our birds....which is usually the case.

Again...I am not a fan of double mating, but it is a fast way to get the lacing in a female. I don't think double mating is necessary in this breed, but I haven't raised them so I can't be certain. From comments here it does seem as if some people are getting lacing on the females without double mating already. With a lot of things in chickens...what you read may not be the best way to do it, as each flock has a different genetic makeup when it is a "new" breed that has not been bred heavily for quality or to match a Standard.

I don't know what shows would be close to you in TN, but I would be pretty sure that whoever judges them in the south has probably never held a Barnie before, so the results are going to depend on the judges abililty to take the SOP info and convert it to the actual bird. Like any other skill.....some judges are better than others and the more of the breed they handle, the better they get. I don't see very many Barnies in shows, so until a number are shown, it will be difficult for some judges to get the description vs the real bird down. A suggestion. Bring the Barnie Standard in written/typed form to the show and give it to the judge before judging. Every judge is supposed to have the latest version of the SOP in hand at a show, but some don't. If the judge doesn't look it up he/she may rely on what he learned before the judging test and in some cases that might have been before the Barnies were admitted to the SOP.

There is a certain amount of grooming that needs to happen before a not so well known breed is judged if you want accurate results. Folks need to start the education of judges through articles and other writings in places like Poultry Press, the APA yearbook and any other place judges will see it. It will pay off in judges knowing what they are doing and will increase the interest in this breed. Promotion is very important IMO.

Walt

 

[Outlier]

Chad,
I haven't had a lot of time to check out the breeding principles of the Barnies double laced color, but here is what I have found.....which is different than what I have read here. Silver penciled and partridge are two colors with double lacing in the females. Double mating is used all the time in these two colors.........now the surprising thing is this.....they use the males with lacing or spots in the breast instead of the clear black breasted males which the SOP calls for to produce the double laced females. That seems to be in conflict with what folks are telling me here. Most of you that are reading this thread are fairly new to this and are going by what you read online......which is about the only source other than old books on the subject.

I don't think folks here in the US have tested this breeding enough to know what really works here and are going more by what they have read. Generally this is a safe bet, but this breed is relatively new to the US and has not had a lot of folks actually breeding to improve it.....thus not a lot of experienced breeders. What works for us here may be quite different than what works for the Dutch, as more than likely their genetic makeup is different than our birds....which is usually the case.

Again...I am not a fan of double mating, but it is a fast way to get the lacing in a female. I don't think double mating is necessary in this breed, but I haven't raised them so I can't be certain. From comments here it does seem as if some people are getting lacing on the females without double mating already. With a lot of things in chickens...what you read may not be the best way to do it, as each flock has a different genetic makeup when it is a "new" breed that has not been bred heavily for quality or to match a Standard.

I don't know what shows would be close to you in TN, but I would be pretty sure that whoever judges them in the south has probably never held a Barnie before, so the results are going to depend on the judges abililty to take the SOP info and convert it to the actual bird. Like any other skill.....some judges are better than others and the more of the breed they handle, the better they get. I don't see very many Barnies in shows, so until a number are shown, it will be difficult for some judges to get the description vs the real bird down. A suggestion. Bring the Barnie Standard in written/typed form to the show and give it to the judge before judging. Every judge is supposed to have the latest version of the SOP in hand at a show, but some don't. If the judge doesn't look it up he/she may rely on what he learned before the judging test and in some cases that might have been before the Barnies were admitted to the SOP.

There is a certain amount of grooming that needs to happen before a not so well known breed is judged if you want accurate results. Folks need to start the education of judges through articles and other writings in places like Poultry Press, the APA yearbook and any other place judges will see it. It will pay off in judges knowing what they are doing and will increase the interest in this breed. Promotion is very important IMO.

Walt

Thanks, great information. Perhaps there is more grey area or middle ground in breeding this lacing than previously thought.