Barnevelder breeders lets work together and improve the breed

[tls_ranch]

Walt, I don't think I quoted you out of context regarding the Country of origin. It should be part of this discussion. Regardless, I have already agreed to disagree as clearly as I can. Royce wants to breed toward the lacing in the picture. I want to follow a different standard. Go back to picking on the Imported English Orpingtons and German New Hampshires and French Marans. They are way more popular than Dutch Barnevelders. It is a little bit ironic that Today is the 4 th, and I am getting picked on about freedom. I will still keep posting and learning new things.


Trisha

Just to clarify. I raise German New Hamps, I have no problem with them. I have no quarrel with the British Standard as it relates to Orps in that country. The two Standards are almost the same. They allow a bit more fluff and their heads are smaller. I was part of the Marans qualifying.....and they were a mess.....but we helped them get accepted.... it took a few tries though.

The Marans were a mess because there were inflexible people who did their own thing until the breed was driven into the ground. Very much like I see here. The chest color is the very least of the problems I see with the Barnies. This was also pointed out by Chris who you loved until he disagreed with you. As Chris pointed out.....there is a lot more color issues in the Barnie than the chest....the chest is only the indicator of those color problems.

In poultry we will always have differing opinions. The current APA Standard Committee is not inflexible. Now that Bjorn is back, he may have some compelling reason to make changes to the Standard, but since he was involved in the original qualifying, I have no idea what they may be. When I think something is wrong, I would do something about it at the time it is happening.

I don't think people are restricting your freedom.......it's more about your off the wall statements and your total disrespect to me and the APA. You will never be successful in breeding chickens if you continue to think you know it all. The reality is that you don't even know how to use genetic formula's and you don't know the genetic makeup of your own birds. That was evident in Chris's responses to your formula's. I'm not here to chastise anyone, but I let you get away with more smart alec responses than I normally would tolerate. That's over with now, so if you want to be flippant, knock yourself out....but you won't like my responses.

It is too bad, as I am here in northern California too and could maybe help you.....but since you know much more than me, I will let you help yourself. If I can successfully raise Dark Cornish, I don't think Barnies would be a big thing for me. Most folks believe that Cornish are the hardest breed of all to maintain.


One more piece of advice....promote your breed in a positive way if you really care for it. Knocking the APA and it's Standards will not help your cause.

Walt

But I didn't disagree with Chris's genetics..he was adding even more interesting genetics info to look at. I knew the basics of some of it, but it was really fun to talk genetics and how it effects barnevelders. You said genetics are not that important and should be disregarded as " mumbo jumbo" not me. I was pretty shocked by that.

You told me the APA does not decide the SOP that it is up to the Breed clubs to come to a decision and submit what they agree is the best and ideal description of a breed. You told me it tends to go with the country of origin. You told me the SOP should be attainable without the need for double mating ( though doublemating is a common practice) And that the SOP is a guide, but doesn't have to be clear and can be interpreted anyway we choose.

Tell me where I said that I wanted to change the standard?

You tell me it's fine to double mate or breed how I want. Then I get attacked for saying I would be fine with that.

You tell me to learn all I can, but I get negative comments to everything I post regarding info on breeding good barnevelders.

This is not my cause...I have tried so hard to state so that now you think I am being disrespectful. I don't mean disrespect to APA or its judges.

I do want to breed the best barnevelders. Based on the info I have tried to post and share with others that means not following the current SOP word for word. So be it if I breed a pullet breeder line, but even saying that has drawn some negative comments.

I already stated that now might not be the time to even try to change the SOP. We don't have a breed club, no one can agree and so on. This debate has probably been going on since the 1920s. No one has even tried to write even part of a new description. Just talk about the possibility that it could be written clearer to reflect new research on how to breed good barnies.

You just said you raise German New Hampshires, yet you think I am being disrespectful by wanting to breeding Dutch barnevelders?

Well, I am confused and upset.

Trisha

 

[fowlman01]

But I didn't disagree with Chris's genetics..he was adding even more interesting genetics info to look at. I knew the basics of some of it, but it was really fun to talk genetics and how it effects barnevelders. You said genetics are not that important and should be disregarded as " mumbo jumbo" not me. I was pretty shocked by that.

You told me the APA does not decide the SOP that it is up to the Breed clubs to come to a decision and submit what they agree is the best and ideal description of a breed. You told me it tends to go with the country of origin. You told me the SOP should be attainable without the need for double mating ( though doublemating is a common practice) And that the SOP is a guide, but doesn't have to be clear and can be interpreted anyway we choose.

Tell me where I said that I wanted to change the standard?

You tell me it's fine to double mate or breed how I want. Then I get attacked for saying I would be fine with that.

You tell me to learn all I can, but I get negative comments to everything I post regarding info on breeding good barnevelders.

This is not my cause...I have tried so hard to state so that now you think I am being disrespectful. I don't mean disrespect to APA or its judges.

I do want to breed the best barnevelders. Based on the info I have tried to post and share with others that means not following the current SOP word for word. So be it if I breed a pullet breeder line, but even saying that has drawn some negative comments.

I already stated that now might not be the time to even try to change the SOP. We don't have a breed club, no one can agree and so on. This debate has probably been going on since the 1920s. No one has even tried to write even part of a new description. Just talk about the possibility that it could be written clearer to reflect new research on how to breed good barnies.

You just said you raise German New Hampshires, yet you think I am being disrespectful by wanting to breeding Dutch barnevelders?

Well, I am confused and upset.

Trisha

It was jumbo jumbo the way you were using it. You need to look at my posts again. I said it was very important, but that you needed to know what you were really dealing with genetically in your birds, otherwise it doesn't mean anything and becomes mumbo jumbo. Genetic speak is cool and interesting, but I'm sorry.....you don't have it down yet. I obviously know genetics too, but why talk in formula's that no one here understands...including you. And I can tell by your responses you don't think I know anything. The APA would not use me in my capacities with the organization if I was not well versed in breeding and general poultry knowledge. Most folks in the real poultry world think I know something about poultry.....believe it or not.

Any way you choose????? I am pretty sure I didn't say that either. If you want to make these statements .....back them up. I didn't say anything that could even be interpreted like that.

Change the Standard.......I think everyone here read that.

I don't remember you getting attacked for that and if so I didn't do it.

Yes, I have started to raise German New Hamps, but they will soon be APA SOP NH's, some judges think they are now. There are some slight color changes that I'm going to dial into my chicken calculator....and wow! it is done. In reality I have already changed the color enough to get champ American several times. It just isn't correct yet. The judges like them, but the color is off IMO. Winning is great, but you can never stop improving.

Well ...I'm not into doing any more of this bickering or whatever it is, but am very willing to participate on breed discussions.

I'm always willing to learn and Barnies are a breed that all judges need to learn better. When I say I don't know Barnies well...that does not mean that I don't know anything about them and overall I think I can say with some modesty that my poultry knowledge is well above most the folks on BYC.

Walt

 

[tls_ranch]

But I didn't disagree with Chris's genetics..he was adding even more interesting genetics info to look at. I knew the basics of some of it, but it was really fun to talk genetics and how it effects barnevelders. You said genetics are not that important and should be disregarded as " mumbo jumbo" not me. I was pretty shocked by that.


You told me the APA does not decide the SOP that it is up to the Breed clubs to come to a decision and submit what they agree is the best and ideal description of a breed. You told me it tends to go with the country of origin. You told me the SOP should be attainable without the need for double mating ( though doublemating is a common practice) And that the SOP is a guide, but doesn't have to be clear and can be interpreted anyway we choose.


Tell me where I said that I wanted to change the standard?

You tell me it's fine to double mate or breed how I want. Then I get attacked for saying I would be fine with that.


You tell me to learn all I can, but I get negative comments to everything I post regarding info on breeding good barnevelders.


This is not my cause...I have tried so hard to state so that now you think I am being disrespectful. I don't mean disrespect to APA or its judges.


I do want to breed the best barnevelders. Based on the info I have tried to post and share with others that means not following the current SOP word for word. So be it if I breed a pullet breeder line, but even saying that has drawn some negative comments.


I already stated that now might not be the time to even try to change the SOP. We don't have a breed club, no one can agree and so on. This debate has probably been going on since the 1920s. No one has even tried to write even part of a new description. Just talk about the possibility that it could be written clearer to reflect new research on how to breed good barnies.


You just said you raise German New Hampshires, yet you think I am being disrespectful by wanting to breeding Dutch barnevelders?


Well, I am confused and upset.


Trisha

It was jumbo jumbo the way you were using it. You need to look at my posts again. I said it was very important, but that you needed to know what you were really dealing with genetically in your birds, otherwise it doesn't mean anything and becomes mumbo jumbo. Genetic speak is cool and interesting, but I'm sorry.....you don't have it down yet. I obviously know genetics too, but why talk in formula's that no one here understands...including you. And I can tell by your responses you don't think I know anything. The APA would not use me in my capacities with the organization if I was not well versed in breeding and general poultry knowledge. Most folks in the real poultry world think I know something about poultry.....believe it or not.

Any way you choose????? I am pretty sure I didn't say that either. If you want to make these statements .....back them up. I didn't say anything that could even be interpreted like that.

Change the Standard.......I think everyone here read that.

I don't remember you getting attacked for that and if so I didn't do it.

Yes, I have started to raise German New Hamps, but they will soon be APA SOP NH's, some judges think they are now. There are some slight color changes that I'm going to dial into my chicken calculator....and wow! it is done. In reality I have already changed the color enough to get champ American several times. It just isn't correct yet. The judges like them, but the color is off IMO. Winning is great, but you can never stop improving.

Well ...I'm not into doing any more of this bickering or whatever it is, but am very willing to participate on breed discussions.

I'm always willing to learn and Barnies are a breed that all judges need to learn better. When I say I don't know Barnies well...that does not mean that I don't know anything about them and overall I think I can say with some modesty that my poultry knowledge is well above most the folks on BYC.

Walt

Well, I was just making a poor attempt to start with the basics and add more later on. Chris was welcome to jump in and talk about the more advanced genetics as far as I was concerned.

There is somthing that is starting to make me mad and more confused. If I remember correctly you used German new Hampshires as part of an example against changing the barnevlder standard even a little bit. I think you said that the APA doesn't just change the standard because this and that or a new fad like the German NH. But now you say it is happening.

Yes, I did mention changing the standard. i have also stated several times that I will not be submitting a formal request. This is in response to all the talk about only being interested in changing the standard to meet his or her own birds etc. I want to better the breed not rely on 20 year old info even though that was the best info available 20 years ago. If Royce can better the breed by going with the APA standard and breeding toward that picture he posted...then it's fine with me.

No, I do not know everything. I never said i did, but please take the time to read both of the newer Dutch and even German standards. At least look at some more pictures and I bet you wil find some compelling research to why their birds look so much better. Am I stomping my foot and throwing a fit? ....No but I am getting frustrated at the fact there can't even be a discussion about using modern knowledge to produce better Barnevelders. Will I cry and whine that my birds don't match the standard? No, I will just breed the best birds I can.

Trisha

 

[RachaelS]

Bottom line is that folks should raise the birds to look they want them to look.....but if you show them in the US, they should meet the APA/ABA standards.

Walt.

Quote: I kind of took it the same way Trisha did.

I have known Trisha for a few years, she is very open to learning and if you tell her the tail set, "U" of the back or anything like that is wrong with her birds, she would not get offend and would work to correct. She has also been extremely helpful in guiding people, never judgmental. I re-read the post, since I first read them late last nigh and do not see a single time she was disrespectful, it actually looks like she said to agree to disagree and move on. Then when that did not happen, she tried to post additional pictures and translations, which were never addressed. I personally see nothing wrong with wanting to follow the Dutch Standard if you want. Lots of people post that they have XYZ standard and even charge more than the standards go for. This happens with a LOT of breeds of different animals.

I have a DDR line GSD (DDR line only since of course the DDR does not exist anymore), my dog would NEVER get placed in an AKC show, but got his championship in the International shows. I would prefer his lines over a AKC line of GSD any day, he is true to the intent of the breed. AKC sets the SOP for dogs, yet some of the worst dogs I have seen are AKC champs. Same goes with Chickens. If I wanted a true Silkie, Serama, Cream Legbar, I would NEVER buy anything that won at a APA show (of course Cream Legbars are not there yet), however, if I want a Silkie or Serama, I am forced to buy what is here, which is less than the original. Trisha is simply working towards the original, nothing more nothing less and her birds have some of the most stunning lacing I have ever seen.

I have a LOT of respect for Trisha, Walt, Royce, and Andy, but I feel like I have seen some of ya'lls worse over the past few pages. This thread has never been heated like this before, don't like the direction this thread has gone. I hope Bjorn comes back and puts his 2 cents in.

By the way here is my boy, now this is a dog that can do what the intent of the breed was meant to do.

 

[Tailfeathers]

Trisha what is the whole point of your argument if you never intend to show ? It's been page after page of of why you need the standard changed and people have taken the time to explain the order in which this could be achieved. The SOP is a guideline there is no perfect bird if we could get a handful of folks that would show we could all compare notes. We could certainly learn more this way. I feel things can be changed from the inside rather than out. We could get a feel for the judges and the judges could get a feel for us and our breed. You have taken up a lot of time from folks who I feel genually want to help you in your goal. And then when all is said and done in childlike fashion you exclaim you NEVER intend to show anyway and enjoy the challenge of breeding in your backyard. With your stern reluctance to listen to anyone in the know I feel you'll always have that very challenge you seek.

Perfectly said.

God Bless,

 

[Tailfeathers]

I want to better the breed not rely on 20 year old info even though that was the best info available 20 years ago. If Royce can better the breed by going with the APA standard and breeding toward that picture he posted...then it's fine with me.

No, I do not know everything. I never said i did, but please take the time to read both of the newer Dutch and even German standards. At least look at some more pictures and I bet you wil find some compelling research to why their birds look so much better. Am I stomping my foot and throwing a fit? ....No but I am getting frustrated at the fact there can't even be a discussion about using modern knowledge to produce better Barnevelders. Will I cry and whine that my birds don't match the standard? No, I will just breed the best birds I can.

Trisha

That's the whole point. The breed as far as America is concerned was established in 1991. The Description of the breed was laid out in clear terms in 1991. The specifications for which judges must judge by are laid out. If you want to "better the breed", then breed to the Standard. What other countries have done or are doing at this time is irrelevant. We HAVE a Standard NOW.

And here is the statement that is at the heart of the matter..."and I bet you will find some compelling research to why their birds look so much better". Can't you understand that is the crux of the matter and beauty is in the eye of the beholder???? It's like the say, "Love is blind." And I've personally seen some and thought to myself "And that proves it." You think a Black Breasted male looks better. Fine. That's your personal preference. But that is only a preference. It is a subjective opinion. It is NOT an absolute truth.

What is an absolute truth is that we in this country have an organization which we have chosen to govern the poultry world in this country and which we have given the AUTHORITY to make decisions on poultry matters. The APA has then set up a set of guidelines by which they operate under. Under those guidelines the Barnie was accepted at a qualifying meet. That breed description at that time became the AUTHORITY for which we should be breeding our birds to LOOK like IF we want them to be called "Standard Bred".

If someone wants to breed their bird to another Standard. Fine. They have the freedom to do that. Folks can breed their birds any way or anyhow they want to. But the judges are compelled to judge according to the SOP. So if you choose to breed your birds to another Standard or no Standard at all and so does everyone else at a particular show, I don't care if there are a 100 others just like it and one person's birds actually meets the SOP's description - THAT person's birds should be the one picked for BB. It's just that simple.

"Use modern knowledge to produce better Barnevelders". Again, a subjective statement. Opinion. Preference. "Better" is relative. Who are you to say that your way is "better"? Who is anyone to say that? I don't say the APA's way (not my way but the APA which I follow) is "better". I just say it is what it is. It is what was decided on and the fact that it has stood the test of time for 20 years ought to say something too! I know in the age of enlightenment that it often appears we're smarter and know more than our predecessors but I personally don't believe that is always the case. It just boggles my mind that some refuse to see all that went into getting the Barnies accepted by all the parties involved. It appears that some are completely oblivious to the participants efforts, the credibility and reputation of the APA, and all that the whole process involves.

"I will just breed the best birds I can." In your humble opinion no doubt. But by whose Standard? What is "best" and who decides? My goal is to breed the "best" Barnies I can as well. But I have a Standard to go by. I have something measurable. I have something qualitative and quantitative by which I can measure my success. I live in the USA and I have an APA SOP to measure my success. And I have judges that have spent YEARS learning how to judge to a score sheet to place birds. And it is that by which I will work toward breeding the "best" birds I can.

God Bless,

 

[poultch]

Poulch has added even more substance to the discussion and I think the greatest thing he may have said is to stop focusing solely on the breast color as, according to him and I have no reason to doubt it, the hackles, saddle, and coverts play a role. So it's pretty obvious that there is a whole LOT that is still unknown.


Thanks Poultch for your inputs. I don't understand it all but I do understand enough to know that I'm even more convinced we ought to leave well enough alone and I'm gonna continue to work on my birds until hopefully I get something that looks like this:



I don't remember for sure where I got this and can't find anything in the Properties. I think it came from an old German publication that Erhard had but not sure. But that's basically what I'm after except a little wider lacing.

God Bless,

HI Tailfeathers, many thanks for your words.
But have to be clear that I don't endorse breeding toward a male such as the one above. Not at all. But you have noted a wider a little wider lacing, I would say much wider lacing, the German's (along with the Dutch) would throw this bird out
he is reminiscent of the Wyandotte type lacing that I have stressed earlier, and a type of marking I believe a judge with good knowledge of the breed should pick up as the UK standard stands now.
So I completely agree with Bjorn in the sentinment not to use a male bird like this, this is not even considering his shaftiness which would be exaggerated in his dtrs and his comb, but that's irrelevant in a colour debate

However, this guy is representative of some winning males, which is the problem with the 'wiggle room' he does not have the broad lacing in his back and wing bow (which is called for in the UK standard)
SO as I have said before, you need to look at the bird holistically, this bird IMO doesn't meet the standard (even the UK male standard).

 

[islandgal99]

I agree with Rachel S. The tone of this forum has done a 180 the past couple weeks, and don't get the attack on Trish, to me it appears she is being bullied and I don't get it, and I don't think she has been disrespectful. I don't often post but follow this thread and have read it entirely. I have quit following other threads because the tone is not helpful and mean spirited, and it seems that is the route this has gone from being helpful and supportive. I do think some of the intent from all parties been lost in translation of the typed word in a forum format, and some words taken wrong.

Trish does alot for the breed here on this forum. She posts pictures, tells us what she is doing and why, shows us the birds she selects for breeding and why, and answers people's posts, posts her own questions, shares helpful things like her brooder set up and so much more.

All I see Trish saying, and Trish correct me if I'm wrong, is that at the end of the day if she had to keep two separate pens, one to produce show roosters, and one to produce show hens, in order to meet the standard, that she would rather have one line that is best of both worlds, and she would choose the "standard" hen feathering over a "standard" laced breasted rooster with the breast feathering that the standard calls for. And because that standard is written the way it is, is asking a question as to what is this suppsed to look like, why and how do we comply or how do we change it so we can have one breeding pen. I don't see what's wrong with that. I see Trish working very hard to create a line of Barnies that is to the standard and excellent in every way, even if some view the feathers on her roosters chest to not be ideal. So what? There's a whole lot more that makes a Barnevelder a Barnevelder.

I have not seen on here anyone demonstrating a line that produces roosters and hens with the correct feathering, from the same parents, based on the standard other than other than Royce's video of his project RC Barnies. If its possible, tell us how. Show us. If its a trade secret, how does it help this recovering breed and people like me new to it? Lets turn this around to educating again. Show us how. Show the parents and what you selected for. Show the sibling offspring that shows that yes this breed can have one breeding pen that does it all. And I think we would all be happy. Show us.

Regarding Trishes preference at this point, it makes sense given the economics of raising birds nowadays. We don't have big farms where we can raise hundreds of birds anymore, we don't have the space nor the money for feed. Keeping an extra pen just to make show males doesnt make any economic sense. We're not even allowed to have more than 100 birds without a licence where I'm at. If there's a way to breed a line where we can have both, I'm for it. I just haven't seen it. And I would choose the same as Trish.

 

[tls_ranch]

I want to better the breed not rely on 20 year old info even though that was the best info available 20 years ago. If Royce can better the breed by going with the APA standard and breeding toward that picture he posted...then it's fine with me.


No, I do not know everything. I never said i did, but please take the time to read both of the newer Dutch and even German standards. At least look at some more pictures and I bet you wil find some compelling research to why their birds look so much better. Am I stomping my foot and throwing a fit? ....No but I am getting frustrated at the fact there can't even be a discussion about using modern knowledge to produce better Barnevelders. Will I cry and whine that my birds don't match the standard? No, I will just breed the best birds I can.


Trisha

That's the whole point.  The breed as far as America is concerned was established in 1991.  The Description of the breed was laid out in clear terms in 1991.  The specifications for which judges must judge by are laid out.  If you want to "better the breed", then breed to the Standard.  What other countries have done or are doing at this time is irrelevant.  We HAVE a Standard NOW.

And here is the statement that is at the heart of the matter..."and I bet you will find some compelling research to why their birds look so much better".  Can't you understand that is the crux of the matter and beauty is in the eye of the beholder????  It's like the say, "Love is blind."  And I've personally seen some and thought to myself "And that proves it."  You think a Black Breasted male looks better.  Fine.  That's your personal preference.  But that is only a preference.  It is a subjective opinion.  It is NOT an absolute truth.

What is an absolute truth is that we in this country have an organization which we have chosen to govern the poultry world in this country and which we have given the AUTHORITY to make decisions on poultry matters.  The APA has then set up a set of guidelines by which they operate under.  Under those guidelines the Barnie was accepted at a qualifying meet.  That breed description at that time became the AUTHORITY for which we should be breeding our birds to LOOK like IF we want them to be called "Standard Bred". 

If someone wants to breed their bird to another Standard.  Fine.  They have the freedom to do that.   Folks can breed their birds any way or anyhow they want to.  But the judges are compelled to judge according to the SOP.  So if you choose to breed your birds to another Standard or no Standard at all and so does everyone else at a particular show, I don't care if there are a 100 others just like it and one person's birds actually meets the SOP's description - THAT person's birds should be the one picked for BB.  It's just that simple.

"Use modern knowledge to produce better Barnevelders".  Again, a subjective statement. Opinion.  Preference.  "Better" is relative.  Who are you to say that your way is "better"?  Who is anyone to say that?  I don't say the APA's way (not my way but the APA which I follow) is "better".  I just say it is what it is.  It is what was decided on and the fact that it has stood the test of time for 20 years ought to say something too!  I know in the age of enlightenment that it often appears we're smarter and know more than our predecessors but I personally don't believe that is always the case.  It just boggles my mind that some refuse to see all that went into getting the Barnies accepted by all the parties involved.  It appears that some are completely oblivious to the participants efforts, the credibility and reputation of the APA, and all that the whole process involves.

"I will just breed the best birds I can."  In your humble opinion no doubt.  But by whose Standard?  What is "best" and who decides?   My goal is to breed the "best" Barnies I can as well.  But I have a Standard to go by.  I have something measurable.  I have something qualitative and quantitative by which I can measure my success.  I live in the USA and I have an APA SOP to measure my success.  And I have judges that have spent YEARS learning how to judge to a score sheet to place birds.  And it is that by which I will work toward breeding the "best" birds I can.

God Bless,

Royce,

"If someone wants to breed their bird to another Standard.  Fine.  They have the freedom to do that.   Folks can breed their birds any way or anyhow they want to"

I already said I will breed to the Dutch standard. I didn't say mine are the best. I didn't say anything about your birds quality or ability to meet the APA SOP either. Yes, in my humble opinion I will try to breed to the Dutch standard. What is your problem...with that?

Trisha

 

[poultch]

..... I see Trish working very hard to create a line of Barnies that is to the standard and excellent in every way, even if some view the feathers on her roosters chest to not be ideal. So what? There's a whole lot more that makes a Barnevelder a Barnevelder.

Well put. I view it this way also,
if I were lucky enough to judge a line up at a show with Trisha's birds at a show, and come to her males and see the solid chest, I would say the same thing to myself, (as I said before it's only one sentence). I would place her males (with all else - type being equal) over the bird from the male from that article because her birds aren't shafty and her males have the broad lacing over the back, wing bow - which is called for even in the UK standard.
But if there was another bird with the same type but had a laced chest - remember to get that broad lacing over the back and wing bow - you will affect the width of the lacing on the chest, these things 'travel together' therefore his chest lacing also much thicker I would place him over a solid chested male, (a solid chested male more akin to the Dutch standard)