Barnevelder breeders lets work together and improve the breed

[Dr Bjorn Netland]

Nicely put!. I just checked in here really shortly as I am in the middle of entertaining visitors from Europe. These (in my estimate) attacks on Trishia are befuddling. Aren't we all here in the interest of the breed? A Dutch breed is a Dutch breed is a Dutch breed, I think. The Dutch have had their discussions about these issues, and they have had years and years and years of breeding experience. They do NOT want a double sex-based breeding program. Who would want that? Why doesn't everybody relax, get off the soap box, and let the brains do the work? I'll check back later ... but, guys, this tone needs a major overhaul. So....Let's start afresh next week, and let good will and wisdom rule. Take care!

 

[poultch]

If there's a way to breed a line where we can have both, I'm for it. I just haven't seen it. And I would choose the same as Trish.

please read through some of the German links that have been provided, they have looked at this issue, it is quite well laid out

 

[pickledchicken]

Quote: I kind of took it the same way Trisha did.

I have known Trisha for a few years, she is very open to learning and if you tell her the tail set, "U" of the back or anything like that is wrong with her birds, she would not get offend and would work to correct. She has also been extremely helpful in guiding people, never judgmental. I re-read the post, since I first read them late last nigh and do not see a single time she was disrespectful, it actually looks like she said to agree to disagree and move on. Then when that did not happen, she tried to post additional pictures and translations, which were never addressed. I personally see nothing wrong with wanting to follow the Dutch Standard if you want. Lots of people post that they have XYZ standard and even charge more than the standards go for. This happens with a LOT of breeds of different animals.

I have a DDR line GSD (DDR line only since of course the DDR does not exist anymore), my dog would NEVER get placed in an AKC show, but got his championship in the International shows. I would prefer his lines over a AKC line of GSD any day, he is true to the intent of the breed. AKC sets the SOP for dogs, yet some of the worst dogs I have seen are AKC champs. Same goes with Chickens. If I wanted a true Silkie, Serama, Cream Legbar, I would NEVER buy anything that won at a APA show (of course Cream Legbars are not there yet), however, if I want a Silkie or Serama, I am forced to buy what is here, which is less than the original. Trisha is simply working towards the original, nothing more nothing less and her birds have some of the most stunning lacing I have ever seen.

I have a LOT of respect for Trisha, Walt, Royce, and Andy, but I feel like I have seen some of ya'lls worse over the past few pages. This thread has never been heated like this before, don't like the direction this thread has gone. I hope Bjorn comes back and puts his 2 cents in.

By the way here is my boy, now this is a dog that can do what the intent of the breed was meant to do.

So the thread is heated and your not happy with it's direction and wouldn't buy anything that won at an APA show...Don't ! nice way to cool things off. Your forced to buy what is available here and it is less than the original ???? Really. We all know things can run off course people can breed for selfish reasons, quality, fertility and sometimes egg color can suffer, that's just the human element. But to say any APA winning birds are not worth purchasing is very insulting. This thread is way off path and has always been dominated by a certain few....well TLS you and your followers can have it do with it what you will....I'll refrain my suggestion...DONE

Chad

 

[chicksnthestiks]

So the thread is heated and your not happy with it's direction and wouldn't buy anything that won at an APA show...Don't ! nice way to cool things off. Your forced to buy what is available here and it is less than the original ???? Really. We all know things can run off course people can breed for selfish reasons, quality, fertility and sometimes egg color can suffer, that's just the human element. But to say any APA winning birds are not worth purchasing is very insulting. This thread is way off path and has always been dominated by a certain few....well TLS you and your followers can have it do with it what you will....I'll refrain my suggestion...DONE

Chad

I don't breed Barnevelders, I don't own any Barnevelders, I have been reading this thread because I saw Trisha and Happy Chooks on our No.Californian thread and loved their Barnevelders. So from an outside observation I see alot of emotion where there doesn't need be any and that is the problem with conversing on a thread. You can read in the intent however you want and misconstrue meanings. But I found it interesting that you are insulted by RachaelS's opinion,( it's just her opinion), then insulting remark at the end of your statement. Whats sauce for the Goose is sauce for the Gander. By the way, I do not know Trisha or RachaelS, I just want to learn about this breed. Discussions are always good even heated ones, I do wish some would read and re-read what they type before they post it, and I am not singleing out pickledchicken.

 

[Happy Chooks]

I am very pleased you have joined in the discussion Bjiorn. You have always been very helpful on this thread and with welsummers. Your insight with these breeds is very helpful to those of us just starting out in breeding.

Walt - I appreciate your insight as well. Good point on the standard not stating the amount of lacing. I have some 40 pages to read in my SOP.

I see some very passionate people here, which can be good for the breed. It can also cause intense discussions. We will all have different trials in working with them. Some great and some mistakes. (Goodness know I have made mistakes with my welsummers). It is how we learn.

With the loss of 2 major breeders now this breed cannot afford to lose more people willing to work with them. We all want what is best for the barnevelder.

 

[pickledchicken]

Quote: So you in all your wisdom find that saying all the APA winners and there birds are not worthy of purchase are just of opinion. Maybe if you had some Barnies and an inside observation you would better understand. The need for that kind of grand comment and to discredit every APA member and breeder is not of opinion it was a failed rescue attempt. If you don't want APA show winning birds you simply just wouldn't buy them. And I guess the breeding of 3 different lines of Barnies and several out-crosses would be the better bet. I have read and re-read and once again I refrain...

 

[faykokoWV]

I am very pleased you have joined in the discussion Bjiorn. You have always been very helpful on this thread and with welsummers. Your insight with these breeds is very helpful to those of us just starting out in breeding.

Walt - I appreciate your insight as well. Good point on the standard not stating the amount of lacing. I have some 40 pages to read in my SOP.

I see some very passionate people here, which can be good for the breed. It can also cause intense discussions. We will all have different trials in working with them. Some great and some mistakes. (Goodness know I have made mistakes with my welsummers). It is how we learn.

With the loss of 2 major breeders now this breed cannot afford to lose more people willing to work with them. We all want what is best for the barnevelder.

I agree, I think that's one reason this has gotten so heated.. we all want what is best for the breed.

I will say, its nice to see so much activity from a variety of people on this thread. I usually skim it and move on, but this has been very interesting.

 

[RachaelS]

Quote:
Whoa, hold on now you are changing what I said, I said if I wanted a true Silkie or Serama I would not buy from APA winner. I did not say on ALL APA winners! The Silkies in America right now while cute, could NEVER survive in their original environment. Since people are breeding to the extent of the APA standard, not to the original intent of the bird. Seramas are not even real Seramas (but that is a whole other can of worms) That is all that I was saying.

I know APA judges work their bottoms off! It is very hard to have to know everything about all breeds. However, sometimes the SOP while it has good intentions, ends up doing the reverse. Again, I believe this is in all types of animals, not picking on the APA directly. Just a side effect.

Also, yes, I was heated because not that long ago it appeared that all of you respected and valued each others opinions, then all the sudden an attack just because of a difference of opinion. Anyone on the forum knows, I am not one that claims to keep things calm, LOL!!!!

 

[islandgal99]

please read through some of the German links that have been provided, they have looked at this issue, it is quite well laid out

Thanks for the reminder about the links, but I'm not asking about Germany. I'm asking about North American birds. Who here has developed a line that produces siblings that will produce properly laced male and female birds both meeting the SOP. I want of learn how they did if, what lines, what did they look for. How do you do that without selecting for roos or females. I would love to see birds from someone on the forum who has birds with the genetics to do this. If the Germans can do it, do we know for sure we even have that combination of genes in our lines anymore. Do we know for sure two pens were nog used. Maybe the ability was bred out selecting for something else. I love simple punnet squares but beyond that I'm visual. I want to see what is here.

 

[Outlier]

Just a little perspective on this double mating topic. I have a good friend who is a breeder of white crested black polish bantams, standard and bantam white leghorns, light brahma bantams, and white silky bantams. He double mates everything. He often wins at shows with his leghorns. He is also an aspiring judge. I asked him why he double mates, and he said that the wording of the standards makes it necessary. He explained to me what is necessary to get good leghorns, and the double mating really has to do with the standard. Is this ideal? Of course not. But this is the way it is, and the necessity of double mating is not grounds to have the standard changed. Neither is a standard that does not match the country of origin. I think all of the conflict here has to do with those two topics. I don't like it, but that's the way it is. I think the best thing we can do at this point is find the best way to breed to the standard we have using the advice that Walt, Dr. Netland, and Poultch have given us. Thank you Walt for your opinion that the standard doesn't specify the width of the lacing just the contrast of the lacing with the ground color. That may give some wiggle room. And thank you Poultch and Dr. Netland for emphasizing the whole bird concept and how narrow lacing in the male's breast causes problems not just in other parts of the bird but also in his female offspring. We may go in different directions to get to the standard for a while as we gain experience, but we should keep communicating and learning from each other so we can maybe all find a better way to get there.