Barnevelder breeders lets work together and improve the breed

[fowlman01]

That is my point exactly. Breeding to the APA/ABA standard made the Silkie worthless in it's original environment. Don't get me wrong, we need standards, but they are a living breathing standard that can change, have changed and will change in the future. They are not set in stone. Walt, if you were at a show and, there were 2 Barnie with the exact same body however one had perfect lacing and one with not so perfect lacing, which would you put in 1st place? The perfect laced one of course. What if that perfect laced one, laid 1 egg a week and the eggs were very light in color, but the other one laid almost daily and very dark colored eggs. Now which one should be used for a breeding pool? I understand a judge can not take ALL of that into consideration, the breeder should, however, a lot of breeders will used the perfectly laced bird over the other one, even though you are losing out on two VERY important traits of the Barnie. That is what I mean about good intentions.

A while back I was on the Cream Legbar thread and they are trying to get it added, the interesting thing is while writing the description, the American birds are clearly not what the English birds are, so there is much debate as to just write the standard towards what we have already or write it towards the English standard and then everyone would have to start over from scratch. I am not saying that happened with the Barnies, and while it does not show that the standard is a "mistake" it does show that groups may enter a standard based on what they have available at the time. Nothing wrong with that, kind of hard to set up a standard for a bird that does not exist in the US.

1991 was not that long ago, it would be nice to see pictures of the original Show and figure out why lacing was added to our standard. Has anyone requested that from Sam Brush? I know he is very busy and may not have

I don't think that Silkies have an economic role other than being eaten by Asian folk. In fact the Silkies sold in SF Chinatown could do very well in any show. They have big crests and feathers on the middle toe. Using Silkies as an example of anything is a stretch. They are an ornamental breed!

Obviously the judge has no idea what kind ,amount or color the eggs will be when he is judging the bird. I'm not sure where you are going with this. I suppose you mean that breeding to the Standard does not address the economic qualities of the bird. That is just not true. Read the first 40 pages of the Standard. That is up to you as a breeder to take care of...it has nothing to do with a fault in the Standard. The SOP is just a guideline, it is up to you as a breeder to keep up the economic qualities.

I am well aware of what is happening with the Legbars. The had the foresight to get me into the planning early on. They are all novices. The folks that put together the Barnie Standard are far from novices. It is not at all the same.

I talked to Sam about this two days ago. He is not in favor of changing the Standard, but will check with Hans Schipper and get his take on this. Sam was at the qualifying meet of the Barnies and doesn't recall anything that could be construed as a mistake. He seems to recall it well. John Thomforde did the judging and he is available to ask about it.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

Royce,

Okay so one person breeds a nearly Black Breasted Barnie and you are creating your own line of RC Barnies, pretty sure NO ONE ever got mad at you for disregarding the SOP and doing your own thing. As a matter of fact I think everyone was supportive and looking forward to what you came up with.

So for any judges out there, as far as the SOP which one would win at a show?

He is not saying that the SOP should be changed. He is not even asking that the RC variety be admitted. What is your point?

I'm a judge...been one since 1982....which one of what will win a show? R/C vs S/C? The rosecomb is not recognized.

The APA could care less what people breed. They are your birds.

Walt

 

[ChickNmamma]

I have been following this discussion with interest since I have a few young Barnvelders and I would like to make sure they are good specimens of the breed.

I thought I would hop in with my observation on the Silkies, since I have read their SOP and discussions about showing - and the winners at shows are not following the SOP's descriptions - but are instead breeding to the extreme. The SOP calls for a MEDIUM crest - not the huge bonnets we see winning at shows. Its the over exaggeration of traits that make Silkies useless for anything - and that was not the intention of the SOP. They were originally created to brood and raise chicks (pheasant). They still have that use. They can play in the rain - and scratch for food. However, this does break the foot feathers and that gets points taken off at shows. But the same goes for any heavily feather footed breeds. Ornamental does not have to mean useless, but that appears how some are interpreting the SOP. Any bird who has been so over-bred as to need help procreating or seeing where their food is to stay alive - I think that is where the problem lies. Not with the SOP - but with the people who breed them to the extreme. Perhaps those people never read the first 40 pages of the SOP either...

Another point - these birds are winning despite what the SOP says. The interpretation of the SOP and the personal preferences of the breeders that show play a huge part in what we see shown and who wins. I think this can be applied here too. Breed to your personal preference within the guidelines of the SOP. If enough people do this - the winning birds will match what you have - as long as you have everything else correct a small difference of the width of the lacing in the chest means nothing. If the hackles will show shafting with the incorrect lacing width - then the lacing width will have to be wide enough to compensate for that. I don't think Trisha's birds are actually black chested - or Happy Chooks' birds would be too. They are laced - but very thick laced and that appears to meet the American SOP, with interpretation.

I keep seeing Tailfeathers saying that Trisha wants to change the SOP to match her birds. I don't think she does. She keeps saying she doesn't. I don't know why he keeps saying she does... The only thing I have seen her ask is that it be clarified on the thickness of the lacing - and "to appear almost black from a distance" is is what I have seen both Trisha's and Tailfeathers' birds described as already by them.

 

[RachaelS]

Obviously the judge has no idea what kind ,amount or color the eggs will be when he is judging the bird. I'm not sure where you are going with this. I suppose you mean that breeding to the Standard does not address the economic qualities of the bird. That is just not true. Read the first 40 pages of the Standard. That is up to you as a breeder to take care of...it has nothing to do with a fault in the Standard. The SOP is just a guideline, it is up to you as a breeder to keep up the economic qualities.

I am well aware of what is happening with the Legbars. The had the foresight to get me into the planning early on. They are all novices. The folks that put together the Barnie Standard are far from novices. It is not at all the same.

I talked to Sam about this two days ago. He is not in favor of changing the Standard, but will check with Hans Schipper and get his take on this. Sam was at the qualifying meet of the Barnies and doesn't recall anything that could be construed as a mistake. He seems to recall it well. John Thomforde did the judging and he is available to ask about it.

Walt

No, of course not! There is no way at the judging table you can tell about broodiness, mothering, egg laying, temperament (well you some extent you can) etc, that is simply impossible and not expected.

However, those are all parts of the SOP and just as important as the form and feathering. So you do what you can based on the information you have at hand. However, you could be putting a bird in 1st place that is lacking all the other SOP traits, that bird gets breed because it was #1. Where as #2, could be excellent in all other way, except lacing, yet it is not breed. That is where people come up with the idea that show birds are just for looks, since some breeders will breed to the appearance standard just to win and not ALL of the standards to have a solid all around bird. Please note I said some, not all.

Good thing you are in on the Legbars, they are such a wonderful breed.

Thank you for contacting Sam.

 

[RachaelS]

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Neither did Trisha, she just said she was breeding towards the Dutch Standard with the breast lacing and she preferred the Dutch Standard, I think at most she said it would be nice to see the SOP changed, but said several times she was not trying to get it changed.

Edited: She has always said her pullets would be breed to SOP and I went back again starting at page 350 and do not see ANY place where she stated she wanted to change the SOP.

Yet she is getting slammed for saying that, by someone that is breeding towards no standard but their own. Which, hey, I don't care, good for him, but why get so heated and say "I breed only to the APA standards", when clearly he is not. Talk about casting stones.

 

[bonnylass79]

No, of course not! There is no way at the judging table you can tell about broodiness, mothering, egg laying, temperament (well you some extent you can) etc, that is simply impossible and not expected.

However, those are all parts of the SOP and just as important as the form and feathering. So you do what you can based on the information you have at hand. However, you could be putting a bird in 1st place that is lacking all the other SOP traits, that bird gets breed because it was #1. Where as #2, could be excellent in all other way, except lacing, yet it is not breed. That is where people come up with the idea that show birds are just for looks, since some breeders will breed to the appearance standard just to win and not ALL of the standards to have a solid all around bird. Please note I said some, not all.

Good thing you are in on the Legbars, they are such a wonderful breed.

Thank you for contacting Sam.

This is where ethics as a breeder and buyer come into play. First of all, I would hope that as breeders, we are breeding for "the whole package" in our birds. Breeding for lacing and not egg color is what's gotten us into the current mess with light colored eggs. I for one will be choosing my breeding birds based upon lacing, confirmation, temperament and egg color. To only breed to one category is a mistake and will eventually be to the detriment of your line.

As a buyer, I think individuals should do their research and choose their birds from reputable breeders whose birds conform to all aspects of the breed (not just those that are winning in the show ring). I wouldn't want to buy from a breeder whose birds are known to be aggressive any more than I would want to buy birds with poor lacing. And the same goes for egg color. I want my job as a breeder to be as easy as possible, so I want to start with the best possible breeding stock. Non-breeders are going to want to buy Barnevelders because they're pretty and lay dark colored eggs. I would ruin my reputation (and ultimately my bottom line) if I sold them birds that lay light brown eggs.

I don't think it's impossible to breed to the SOP, while also keeping the original intent of the breed. Difficult, yes, but not impossible. The Barnevelder is a heritage breed, bred for the homestead. That right there tells me they shouldn't require double mating. I certainly don't intend to use double mating. It may take me longer to get show winning birds, but I will try. I'm in this for the long haul. It doesn't sound impossible, since there are apparently breeders now who can meet the standard without double mating. I do plan to show, but I will not base all of my breeding decisions on who wins at the shows. It merely tells me what I need to work towards for the next generation.

 

[bonnylass79]

I am curious, since we have some really experienced breeders here, what can we look for in our breeding stock to get us back to standard? I've seen mentioned a few times now that the lacing on the saddles (and ultimately the chests) needs improvement. How can we select breeding stock to fix this issue? What should we be looking for? Do we simply keep selecting the best hens and roosters, generation after generation, until it's fixed, or are there certain specific traits that we should be looking for? I've seen it mentioned on other threads for other breeds, to set up "rolling" breeding pens, where hens go back to the pen they were bred from, and roosters get rotated to a new pen. I'm thinking of setting up something similar with my Barnevelders (if I can convince Hubby to build some more coops).

It's no secret that the breed was largely abandoned for a number of years. It has taken a lot of work by a number of dedicated breeders (Trisha included) to get the breed back to where it is now. It shouldn't surprise anyone that there is still more work to be done. Just look at how much the double lacing has improved over the last few years. The lacing on the chests (without double mating) may just be the next challenge we have to face.

 

[RachaelS]

This is where ethics as a breeder and buyer come into play. - Yep, that is the good and bad, you are now relying on someone else to have ethics, when they are selling you a bird.

As a buyer, I think individuals should do their research and choose their birds from reputable breeders whose birds conform to all aspects of the breed (not just those that are winning in the show ring). I wouldn't want to buy from a breeder whose birds are known to be aggressive any more than I would want to buy birds with poor lacing. And the same goes for egg color. I want my job as a breeder to be as easy as possible, so I want to start with the best possible breeding stock. Non-breeders are going to want to buy Barnevelders because they're pretty and lay dark colored eggs. I would ruin my reputation (and ultimately my bottom line) if I sold them birds that lay light brown eggs. -
Again you are correct and you know what other traits to look for, not everyone does and will simply rely on what the breeder tells them, buyers fault, well yes.

I don't think it's impossible to breed to the SOP, while also keeping the original intent of the breed. Difficult, yes, but not impossible. The Barnevelder is a heritage breed, bred for the homestead. That right there tells me they shouldn't require double mating.
Nope not impossible and very good observation on the heritage breed.

PS I never meant to imply that you can not breed to the SOP while keeping the original intent, just that sometimes that does not happen when people put winning #1 place ribbons based on SOP appearance over SOP functions. Trisha's hens are the the whole package, along with a lot of other great breeders on this thread.

Bonnylass79, sounds like you are going to be another great ambassador to the breed

 

[Apdeb]

Royce poultch where are you located
I got 10 6 week olds and want to start breeding them
I am in woodbridge ct

 

[bonnylass79]

Thank you. And you're right. We can't always trust the ethics of other people. However, reputation and word of mouth goes a long way in the chicken world. Buyers now have the opportunity to buy from a breeder on the other side of the country. I've seen people refuse to buy from a breeder because of a RUMOR that their lines have an issue. Ultimately, it comes down to a breeder's bottom line. Sales pay the feed bill, not ribbons. Yes, some people will still breed and buy just based upon what wins ribbons. But, if I can develop a line that wins ribbons, has a great temperament, and lays dark eggs, then I will develop a better reputation as a breeder and my birds will ultimately be more valuable.