Barnevelder breeders lets work together and improve the breed

[Tailfeathers]

Royce - I'd like to see a picture of Erhards bantam barnevelder's laced chest. How thick is the lacing? I've seen some pictures of bantams and they looked similar to the LF barnevelders. I have not seen a bantam picture with a laced chest.

I think the discussion here is not laced or not laced. But to what degree? My birds are laced in the chest, but you have to really look to see it. As was said earlier, they "appear" solid black until you part the feathers.

I've asked Erhard if he can send me a pic of the Bantam Barnie. Haven't gotten it yet and I'm guessing he doesn't know how to save the pics to his computer or to attach it in an email. Erhard is a terrific guy but he truly is one of the "Old Timers" and I think he'd be the first to admit that he's not very computer savvy. I'll probably be going down to see him again in a month or so. I always take my camera when I do and will try to get a picture of it.

I just don't feel like going back and finding it but yes, what got this whole thing started was a discussion on whether to have lacing or not. I posted a video of my RC Barnie project and my male has some pretty nice lacing in the breast (btw Chris, did you see that bird? Your thoughts?) and Trisha asked me if I was breeding to get lacing. I replied with absolutely because that's what the Standard calls for. And off we went on this multi-page tirade.

God Bless,

 

[Tailfeathers]

I keep seeing Tailfeathers saying that Trisha wants to change the SOP to match her birds. I don't think she does. She keeps saying she doesn't. I don't know why he keeps saying she does... The only thing I have seen her ask is that it be clarified on the thickness of the lacing - and "to appear almost black from a distance" is is what I have seen both Trisha's and Tailfeathers' birds described as already by them.

I suggest you go back and read Trisha's exact words for herself and yourself. It starts here:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...lets-work-together-and-improve-the-breed/3513

The key paragraph is, "I will be breeding for the Dutch standard to go with the country of origin's standard. Rather than double mating to produce both male and female lacing to meet the APA's description, I will focus on pullet breeder lines. That way I can at least produce exceptionally laced females that meet the APA standard. According to the Dutch the solid black breasts in males leads towards better laced females." (bold emphasis mine)

Two posts down - #3515 - Trisha says, "Here's my last rant... Now a lot of research has proven that breeding for laced breasted males will result in poor female lacing." I asked for that proof and I think Chris has shown that is not an absolute. Which as I said is my experience because I do NOT double mate. And btw, just for future discussions, for those who want to accuse me, Walt, or anyone else of bullying Trisha or verbally beating up on her, I'd like to suggest in the future that if "rants" weren't done, then calmer heads might prevail all the way around. You can't throw a temper tantrum and hurl insults at folks - including a Master Breeder and a judge - and not expect to be called on it.

Then Andy states at #3529 -
"Breast color male
I know you did not exactly propose it Trisha but it sounds like you would be in favor of changing the APA standard for the breast color of the roosters. I am inclined to agree with that position. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I happen to think the black breasted males look sharp and I recall reading the justification for establishing males with laced breasts in USA was sort of arbitrary and not based on a good population laced breasted males.

We would be much further ahead as breeders would be doing the breed a greater service by changing the breast to black. I would just add a me too to all the reasons Trisha gave on her recent post. I am not sure how to go about changing the standard and doubt if I will lead the charge since I am not too concerned with showing, but for the long term good of the breed I would help with the effort."

Again, someone who does not plan to show but wants to change the SOP for those of us who do and again the discussion is about "black breasted males" vice "laced breasts".

Trisha's post #3533 - "Ok, not a rant just facts.

1) When first introduced to the poultry world Barnevelder males had solid black breasts. (Bolded emphasis mine. Btw, as I pointed out earlier that's because the bird was solid black!)
2) The British later changed their standard to include laced breasts in the males to suit their needs and preferences.
3) The males used in the the APA qualifying meet had solid black breasts or near solid ( to look solid black). (I forgot to ask, how do you know Trisha? You have pics? Not according to Erhard and he was there!)

Trisha's post #3543 - "Well, never mind then at least I tried. I was just following the advice posted by Bjorn Netland who seemed well respected ( maybe i was mistaken)." Bjorn advocates a solid black breast and has stated the current SOP was a "mistake".

So, now do you "understand why he keeps she does"? Trisha has advocated a solid black breast on here and on the Yahoo group for a long time. This is nothing new. So stop with the I'm picking on Trisha. I'm not. I just disagree with her on this issue.

On a side note, as I was replying here, a thought occurred to me. I'll preface my statement by repeated what I said earlier. I respect Bjorn and his opinion on the issue - I just happen to disagree with him on this. Having said that, I'd like to just reiterate that we still have one of the original Barnevelder and Welsummer breeders and, as I stated before, not only is he still breeding them both but he's probably been breeding them both longer than all of us on here combined.

You're not going to see him on here and the stuff that has transpired on this thread for the last 20 pages is just one reason why but I can tell you, he'd have no part of it. Having said that, when he tells me something, his years of experience carry some weight with me. Maybe it's old and outdated - but I doubt it.

God Bless,

 

[Tailfeathers]

Quote:

Quote:

Neither did Trisha, she just said she was breeding towards the Dutch Standard with the breast lacing and she preferred the Dutch Standard, I think at most she said it would be nice to see the SOP changed, but said several times she was not trying to get it changed.

Edited: She has always said her pullets would be breed to SOP and I went back again starting at page 350 and do not see ANY place where she stated she wanted to change the SOP.

Yet she is getting slammed for saying that, by someone that is breeding towards no standard but their own. Which, hey, I don't care, good for him, but why get so heated and say "I breed only to the APA standards", when clearly he is not. Talk about casting stones.

I suggest you go look at my response to ChickNmamma and read Trisha's own words. I made no false accusation.

And FYI, I bred Standard Barnies long before started my RC project. In fact, my Standard Barnies have taken BB at the last 7 shows in a row and Reserve Continental a few times. So I do breed to the SOP.

Maybe you should back up and take another look at what "clearly" is. I almost said something I shouldn't but I will refrain.

Nonetheless, I think an apology is in order.

God Bless,

 

[Tailfeathers]

Quote:

Bonnylass, I gave you a like awhile back but will take this opportunity to say that I like your perspective and you're asking some great questions.

I wanted to just add one thing to Walt's comment. While absolutely true, I would like to add that there are some awful good breeders out there that you won't see in the year book. I wouldn't begin to put myself in the class as some of these breeders so consider that when I give this example. I give this for the sole reason that I can use it as a real instance that happened to make the point.

Last December I took Champion Continental with a nice Welsummer hen and Reserve Continental with a Barnie pullet. Unfortunately, you won't find me in the year book as the class fell a few birds shy of the required 25 birds in a class for points to be awarded. I've yet to be at a show where there were enough birds in the class for any of the four breeds I show.

All that is simply to say I have no doubt that there are a lot of other breeders - and doggone good ones - who just can't get enough birds in a show to acquire any points and don't have the ability to get to any of the "big" shows. I hope to one day but it won't be this year either.

God Bless,

 

[Tailfeathers]

Quote:
Walt is right. And so are you when it comes to being a shame. But look at how Walt has been treated on this thread. And I know you are personally aware of one specific instance where an "accomplished breeder" had his character, integrity, and motives impugned by a complete novice on a "Club" thread. All he asked for was an apology from that person and NONE of the Club officers (all Newbies) stood up to say that an apology was warranted. So they left the "Club" and the site. Who lost in that? How much knowledge are they getting from him now?

Why would anybody want to continue to share their knowledge there? Even Walt got to a point on here where he realized his years of experience meant nothing to some. We're in the age of FB, BYC, and a host of other "threads". A quick Google check gets you a quick answer. Who needs the wise counsel of someone that has bred birds for 50 years and achieved Master Breeder? And a Judge!

And now we have some who believe that "titles" and "experience" mean NOTHING. Tell ya what, how about those of you who are so quick to dismiss all that, you go and learn everything that a judge has to learn, pass the test, get your license, and then come back and tell me it doesn't mean anything!

So it gets to a point where a person says, "I don't need this crap in my life. I'm going back to breeding my birds and just enjoying my birds, my breeding program, and the results I see."

God Bless,

 

[Tailfeathers]

Hi Royce

I sent that photo of the laced breasted male to you by email. It is from an article in Practical Poultry a UK publication in a breed spotlight they did on Barnevelders. I will have to be careful in the future who I send what too. JK

Andy

Andy, not quite sure how you meant that to be taken so I will just say "Thank You." I think the point that has been completely missed by that pic being posted is that there is another entire country that has a "Barnevelder" which probably most people wouldn't even recognize. (Btw, notice the lacing is also seen on the thighs which our SOP says should be black."

Another thing I haven't mentioned yet is I do recall at one show a judge writing on the coop card "lacing?" Evidently, he knew or looked up what the SOP said.

Lastly, I mentioned in several posts past that the "original" Barnevelder from the "original" country - the "original Dutch Barnevelder" - was probably all Black. The "double laced" Barnie didn't come into existence until some time later. So if there is all this interest in going back to the "original", why not change it back to all Black? The Dutch apparently split off because of that very topic into two different Barnie Clubs.

Seems to me that's about as clear a evidence as one needs to prove this is about personal preference and not "going back to the original".

God Bless,

 

[poultch]

..
Btw, notice the lacing is also seen on the thighs which our SOP says should be black."

..

that roo is over laced, point blank simple, even the British standard would suggest this, not to mention his poor ground colour, again the brits call for red-brown
just as the SOP does, and refer to what the SOP calls for over the wing bows and coverts and his back - you will find this lends itself automatically to a thickly chest laced male (even if the SOP doesn't expressly state the width of chest lacing)
plus the inner and lower web of his primaries to be black with one edge of brown, will actually correlate to an overall dark male bird, so the judge will be trading off one sentence with the other
so I come back to what I said first, get these types of males and corresponding females infront of judges, talk to them afterward I guarantee you it will be more impactful for your cause

but if you were to show me a pair like this:
http://www.nutensportwezep.nl/barnevelder.htm

as a judge I would mention that the ground colour is missing, and there are multiple references to red-brown in the SOP, rather than just one short sentence about the lacing (or lack of) on a male.
then as a breeder I might say, well have you taken a look at some Welsummer males and their chest colour, maybe there is a bit of merit in keeping a bit of ground colour to show in the chest of your males to bring that depth of red-brown back in both sexes

anyway all the best you guys and keep up the work of promoting this cool breed, whether its activity on here or at the show or better both!

 

[Dr Bjorn Netland]

Well I don't know how you all feel about all this, but I'm sure sad that we won't see Trish on here until fall, although I don't blame her one bit. I'm more of a lurker instead of a talker, but I'm choked right now. Maybe Trish is not a 20 year veteran, but that doesn't make her a bad person nor a bad breeder, and just look at her birds - she has AWESOME birds that scream out "I'm a Barnevelder". I watched this thread almost since it started, and have been reading every reply since I started following it and have read it entirely, some sections more than once. I have LOVED this thread as it's been so positive and encouraging, I have learned so much here.

Something changed a few weeks ago and I just simply don't get it. Someone please explain what the purpose was to insult and belittle one of the very people who have made this one of the most enjoyable threads on BYC? Apparently if you ask a question now, you get SLAMMED. It doesn't matter if someone has been breeding quality birds for a year or for 20, if they are enthusiastic and willing to share information freely and without being judgmental, cruel or rude, give their time freely, if they are constantly working on improving on what they have in their breeding pens, AND they inspire and bring new people to a once dying breed, they are good for the breed and good for the poultry world. I don't own Trish's birds, but her enthusiasm and excitement is infectious, her dedication to answering questions and helping 'newbies' has been so incredible and I hope I can spread that infectious desire to breed better birds to the world around me too.

I don't know where you all come from, but in my neck of the woods, respect is earned. Doesn't matter what titles you have on your wall, what you have done in your past, how good you say you are...its your ACTIONS that speak loudest. The actions of Trish on this thread since I have started here, her generosity and desire to learn and share about the breed she loves (and she ONLY has one breed by choice), the time she spends to posting photos and sharing information, leaves me at the end of the day with a whole lot of respect for Trish. And her enthusiasm, and her hard work to create a "complete" Barnevelder package, no matter what color her chickens breasts are, is what this breed needs more than anything. And now she has been pushed out of here, hopefully only for a short while, by someone who isn't usually part of this thread and it begs the question...why? I just don't get it.

If this sort of thing continues to happen, Barnevelders will die again (as it was said, this is the only thing resembling a breed club right now), and if this is what happens in other breeds, poultry showing and breeding will be dead, the genetics handed over to the big three and heritage birds will be gone. Who would want to do anything with this sort of treatment? So go ahead, discourage the newcomers, discourage the enthusism, toss insults and calls us amateurs, continue to belittle us...the poultry world as you know it will die with you when you go if there's nobody inspired to follow along.

To the point, and stated without rancor. Your missive is much appreciated. Thank you.

 

[pickledchicken]

Point blank people whether Trisha wants the standard changed or not....It will not or cannot get changed in this fashion. People keep coming to her aid and I understand that friendships have been developed but please listen to what your defending. And you guys can think what you will because my cock birds chest doesn't even come close to the standard and I'm sure would never place well.

But why in the first place ever question the SOP if your never going to show, not once have any of you here in her defense been able to grasp the irony in that. If she never intends to show what's it matter ( and she did say she didn't care if she NEVER showed ) then she has spoken of showing someday when the rigors of Motherhood have eased. Back and forth and here we go once again.

The APA and SOP are here for us lets start showing and sharing our results and comparing notes. My blue Barnies are from the very guy that started this thread and they have never been well received here, many times the pics will just pass by or new pics of TLS stock are quickly posted to roll them back. Those with my line who have posted pics have experienced this same thing.

We are not and have not been working together on this thread for a very long time. I am curious to see how all the breeding programs play out and we don't have a lot of new blood here to work with so lets do with what we have. And one thing I have heard several time over is everyone can have an opinion so here is mine.

Trisha has confessed to adding 3 separate lines of Barnies and several out-crosses and admitted to harsh criticism of this breeding outside of BYC. How close to original could they be at this point I feel she might have done more harm for the breed than anything else. This is not an attack on Trisha or her stock I only say this in defense and future of the breed. I'm here for it's gain once again in popularity and rise to the top and would have said the same to anyone breeding in this fashion.

Chad

 

[fowlman01]

that roo is over laced, point blank simple, even the British standard would suggest this, not to mention his poor ground colour, again the brits call for red-brown
just as the SOP does, and refer to what the SOP calls for over the wing bows and coverts and his back - you will find this lends itself automatically to a thickly chest laced male (even if the SOP doesn't expressly state the width of chest lacing)
plus the inner and lower web of his primaries to be black with one edge of brown, will actually correlate to an overall dark male bird, so the judge will be trading off one sentence with the other
so I come back to what I said first, get these types of males and corresponding females infront of judges, talk to them afterward I guarantee you it will be more impactful for your cause

but if you were to show me a pair like this:
http://www.nutensportwezep.nl/barnevelder.htm

as a judge I would mention that the ground colour is missing, and there are multiple references to red-brown in the SOP, rather than just one short sentence about the lacing (or lack of) on a male.
then as a breeder I might say, well have you taken a look at some Welsummer males and their chest colour, maybe there is a bit of merit in keeping a bit of ground colour to show in the chest of your males to bring that depth of red-brown back in both sexes

anyway all the best you guys and keep up the work of promoting this cool breed, whether its activity on here or at the show or better both!

Chis,

I'm guessing that the female should not have the pointy lacing I see on the lower breast and lower rear. Is that correct by your Standard? Are we overlooking the possibility that the Barnies here have a different genetic makeup than other countries?

Walt