Barnevelder breeders lets work together and improve the breed

[RachaelS]

Point blank people whether Trisha wants the standard changed or not....It will not or cannot get changed in this fashion. People keep coming to her aid and I understand that friendships have been developed but please listen to what your defending. And you guys can think what you will because my cock birds chest doesn't even come close to the standard and I'm sure would never place well.


Chad

Chad,
I think you are missing the point in why we are defending Trisha. It is not because she wants to change the SOP, or anything to do with the SOP, it is because of the way she was treated, plain and simple.

This whole discussion to change the standard could have occurred with out insults. I am not saying that I did not post insulting things, but at that point I had, had enough and figured if it was okay to insult Trisha, it was okay for me to insult them, treat others as you would like to be treated. Maybe the post are very similar to the SOP, they are interpreted differently by different people.

 

[fowlman01]

I don't understand why no one is taking Chris's advice: Dont' get hung up on the chest.

The most important thing is to get the birds in front of judges....start the dialog with judges. Do the promotion.....give the judges a Barnie Standard before the judging.

The Ko Shamo bantam people do this before every show.
They also talk up their breed with anyone who will talk to them. The Ko Shamo calls for split wings which are a DQ in every other breed of chickens. This was a huge hurdle to overcome with most judges. Guess what? Judges now love them and many are breeding them. Even Jeff Halbach the past President of the ABA......who once said "no way a bird with split wings will ever be in our Standard"...well guess what? He now loves them too and reported on now many he saw in a show in Germany in the ABA Yearbook. Last weekend I attended a very small show in Erureka CA which is in the middle of nowhere and the breed that had the most entries by far? Ko Shamo's and they are not even recognized by the APA/ABA yet.

There were 75 of them at the ABA National this year. Now that is how a breed club promotes a breed. If you really care about this breed do something. And not to burst any bubbles, but griping on BYC will not get it done.

Walt

 

[Dr Bjorn Netland]

The tone in this discussion is disconcerting, to say the least. How about taking a deep, deep breath and simply agree to disagree. The SOP description is what it is, and if it needs changing, then there is a process that must be followed. That's quite simple. Meanwhile, judges are supposed to follow the SOP in placing birds, which should also be quite simple--though one often sees examples of the opposite, at least as concerns Barnevelders and Welsummers.
As concerns the qualifying meet, there are a few facts that are being misrepresented. For one thing, more than half of the birds shown came from Horst and me. My birds represented three "lines": the one originated from birds acquired from Horst, the second originated from birds that I got from Lowell Barber (whose birds were hatched out of eggs out of the Netherlands), and the third group was a cross between the two. Every male had a solid black breast. Only one of Horst's males showed any red in the breast. I can speak of the birds that Horst and I showed with 100 percent certainty. As for the others, I can't recall, except there was one male from the Vancouver Island area (British Columbia) that had a distinctly different type (a very long neck and more slender, but I can't recall the breast color). Horst submitted the standard proposal for the breed, as he also did for the Welsummers. Why it ended up as it did, I don't know, and it may be totally irrelevant in this discussion, though I suspect Horst used a translation of sorts from the standard of his native Germany. The Welsummer standard, however, was more in keeping with the Dutch/British standard, which led to protests from some breeders whose birds were of German lines, subsequently resulting in a SOP revision (tail angle) that became a compromise between the two. I don't know where Horst got his Barnie start from--Germany, the UK, the Netherlands, or wherever. A couple of years thereafter, Hans Schippers stayed with me during a visit to the US, and he thought some of my Barnies were too dark ("te donker" or something) and arranged to have some eggs shipped to Lowell and me from the top Dutch breeders. The males from these (at least the ones I ended up with) had black breasts, and they were just as dark as the ones I already had (by that time my old birds had not been bread along any particular "line" but were of mixed background); the only difference was that the females had an incredibly beautiful gloss and superbly sharp lacing. A combination of dog/raccoon raids, along with the difficulties in raising chicks (unless vaccinated, they invariably fell victim to Marek's), I was left with just a few birds, and they were not the best (the best were apparently the favored meals of dogs, hawks, owls, and raccoons). I ended up disposing of the remaining few, some of which, sadly enough, ended up with Sandhill (they deserved better birds than those).
After many years of breeding, then, I gave up on them yet I continued to educate myself about the breed, reading pamphlets and copies of publications from the UK, the Netherlands, and Denmark. The poor resistance to Marek's was documented in Dutch articles early on (the 1930s), and the struggle to establish a single mating bird was also documented. The desire to achieve single mating flocks eventually met with success in the Netherlands but was evidently not followed by the Germans (or UK breeders).
I rarely show birds any more, as my arthritic bones make it hard to do show preparations and transport the birds to shows (besides, I am worried about picking up a disease as that has happened several times in the past). The Barnies, as well as the Wellies, that I have seen at shows that I have checked out over the recent years have been of poor quality. I wish I could see some of Royce's Wellies, though, as the pictures I have seen show some beautiful birds.
Trishia's enthusiasm and open attitude have impressed me from her very first contact, and it is hurtful to see the reaction her contributions have received. I so miss the respectful and engaging talks with judges like Ken Cooke and Vern Sorensen about any poultry topic, and can recall time and again the arrogant, dismissive retorts from some other poultry judges if questions were asked or an opinion stated. Young hobbyists are too often discouraged because of such condescending behavior, at least when it comes to exhibiting birds. Strange as it might sound, there are quite a few breeders who know a lot more about a breed than do judges and who can evaluate a bird better than the licensed judge. Birds that should be disqualified are placed on championship row time and again, at least when it comes to class champions.
People who are involved with poultry should be welcomed into the exhibition circles, and not rebuffed. The serious breeders should be encouraged to suggest changes to the SOP when appropriate, or even challenge things; they should definitely not be rebuffed and made to feel like incompetent fools. Reading through some of these missives, I feel that some people have crossed the line here, even if they themselves don't think so. We can do better than that. No, we MUST do better than that, or else the APA will become reserved for the pope and cardinals and the church will become empty.
Color descriptions are often tricky, and in many cases open to individual interpretation. Certain terms are vague in their definition, and may even vary depending on one's gender and regional/country location (ginger, buff, brown, partridge etc.). What led to the development of two varieties of SC brown Leghorns, for instance, or the development of the new varieties of the Wellies (as in Germany)? The dark India Game, or Cornish, is double laced, and the SOP here calls for a solid black breast in the male. Perhaps it might be a good idea to label the color variety double laced mahogany, brown, red, or whatever, and make it a standard color variety for all SOP breeds? Or, perhaps it is much better to develop a set specific pattern for each breed? What do I know? Just as a personal opinion--and I speak for myself only--there may be some sense in establishing an APA standard that follows that of the breed's country of origin....
Time to enjoy the sunshine. Good day to you all.

 

[poultch]

Chis,

I'm guessing that the female should not have the pointy lacing I see on the lower breast and lower rear. Is that correct by your Standard? Are we overlooking the possibility that the Barnies here have a different genetic makeup than other countries?

Walt

no, I think that pointiness is more of a function of the shape of her feather, it would be a tough judge to ping her on her lacing
but her ground colour is not red-brown
this is what I mean by that holistic approach, as these are a dutch bred pair, and the dutch do accept a more gold (apposed to red-brown) so they are spot on right for the dutch bird makeup and their standard
vs say a German style colouration where they want a red-brown - so in turn they want that bit of colour to show on the chest of the male, so its reflected in these respective countries' standards

PS
I would sting this bird for her hairy face and coarse looking head, her lacing is super granted, but I don't select for birds like her functional type

If the USA would want to go to a full black breast (as the dutch) then you will need not only change that one sentence about the lacing of the males chest, but re-vise all the references to red-brown (in both sexes), therefore addressing the knock on effects (as the dutch have done, and expressed in that Van Gink portrait),
taking a broom through a standard re the tone/strength of ground colour in any country in any breed would be an uphill slog IMO
this is why I suggested way back now, not to get hung up on the chest colour of the male, let that 'wiggle room/leniency' stay re the lacing for him, but enforce the broad lacing asked for (which is common across all the countries standards - USA, AUS, UK, NLD, DEU, NZ) for the males over shoulders and wings etc, and therefore you can leave the red-brown alone
This was for NZ at least was a satisfactory result/trade off to do nothing, to the double laced variety in both sexes.

but I take a little bit of offence to the notion that this good breed will die out without the help of one or 2 individuals, that's nonsense and plain insulting to the people which are breeding and showing and whilst breeding for utility and health
not to mention a bit of a kidney punch to the near 500 barnevelders that were exhibited at the European nationals last year

righto, I am tapping out of this, didn't want to but reply but did so out of respect for Walt, good luck guys,

 

[flocknfoal]

I'm with BonnyLass - how about some cute chicks to make you smile and lighten the mood?




BTW, anyone ever have a barnie chick with white wingtips?





Smile and God Bless!
Shanna

 

[flocknfoal]

I'd still love some opinions on which of these two Greenfire blue barnevelders you would select for breeding? Their coloring is so different, and there isn't currently an American standard for Blues, so I don't know which would be considered more "correct". Thoughts or opinions?

 

[fowlman01]

I'd still love some opinions on which of these two Greenfire blue barnevelders you would select for breeding? Their coloring is so different, and there isn't currently an American standard for Blues, so I don't know which would be considered more "correct". Thoughts or opinions?

Do you have other pictures of these boys? The are missing their tails and the angle looks as if both have pinched tails. The difference in coloring could be put to use in fixing female color. I would have to see the females that you have available.

Profile pictures are good, but I know that it is hard to get good pictures of chickens. If you have a video feature on your camera, try taking a video and then go through it and pick out stills to use....I find that is the best way for me to get the shot like.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

I recommend this thread to any serious chicken folks. I am also posting this to show that under normal circumstances I am not hard nosed. I gave this lady the eggs these hatched from. https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/400344/heritage-large-fowl-thread/13100#post_11578096

Walt

Dr Netland. Ken Cooke just recently passed. I had known Ken and Vern for 50 years. Vern gave me my APA judging test. I''m not sure about Ken, but I know that Vern would not have put up with this either.

Walt

 

[Dr Bjorn Netland]

Walt,
Thank you for letting me know that Ken passed away recently. As his health and communicative ability deteriorated, it was not possible to have a meaningful exchange over the telephone, so I had not contacted him for quite some time. He was always a most gracious and considerate person, and his concern about poultry issues was never derailed by personal stuff as far as I know. When I worked on my barred Leghorn project, he was always there to give me advice and also gave me some of his birds to use in the breeding program. He also took a keen interest in the Barnevelders and the Welsummers. Actually, he was also the only judge at that time to my knowledge who realized that the reddish-brown base color of the Welsummer hens was the correct one and understood that the light brown Leghorn color was not for the Welsummer. He also wanted me to share with him whatever information I could retrieve about the Barnevelders, most of which I acquired through Hans Schippers. He will be missed.
As for Vern, I had the distinct honor of clerking for him on several occasions, back when I was better able to stand for a long period. I was flattered when he asked me to work with him. He had a sharp eye for a good bird, and he kept explaining to me why he placed individual birds the way he did. I learned more about poultry traits and conformation controversies from him than from anyone else, and his consistent emphasis on vigor made me realize how important that was. I believe he had the incredible capacity to place a vast number of birds in a very short time, faster than anyone else I was able to observe. --And how disappointed he was when the Sebrights failed to impress him. His favorite breed, I think.
Again, I appreciate your letting me know about Ken's passing. With both Ken and Vern now gone, the hobby has a vacuum that may never be filled.
Regards,
Bjorn

 

[flocknfoal]

I'd still love some opinions on which of these two Greenfire blue barnevelders you would select for breeding? Their coloring is so different, and there isn't currently an American standard for Blues, so I don't know which would be considered more "correct". Thoughts or opinions?

Do you have other pictures of these boys? The are missing their tails and the angle looks as if both have pinched tails. The difference in coloring could be put to use in fixing female color. I would have to see the females that you have available.

Profile pictures are good, but I know that it is hard to get good pictures of chickens. If you have a video feature on your camera, try taking a video and then go through it and pick out stills to use....I find that is the best way for me to get the shot like.

Walt

Hi Walt, Thanks for the feedback. Good idea about taking video and picking stills from that!

These guys are only 14 weeks old, so their tales are not fully grown in. I know that they are too young to know for sure yet, but as it stands today my Barnie flock appears to be 14 boys and only 6 girls. These are the oldest and the most expensive since I got them as chicks from Greenfire and the others I hatched from eggs.

With the cost of feed and available space, I don't want to keep 14 roosters all winter. Since I'm very new to chicken breeding I'm hoping I can get help from more experienced breeders to decide which to cull.

Below are four pictures of each of the two blue roosters. The top row is Albert. The second row is Augustus.



And here are the three standard double laced:



BTW, I'll be taking at least a few of these to the local fairs in the fall. I'm hoping to meet some experienced breeders, as far as I know at this time there are not many serious breeders in the area. Mostly just mixed backyard flocks for laying and meat.

Thanks again for any feedback!!