Barnevelder breeders lets work together and improve the breed

[fowlman01]

Hi Walt, Thanks for the feedback. Good idea about taking video and picking stills from that!

These guys are only 14 weeks old, so their tales are not fully grown in. I know that they are too young to know for sure yet, but as it stands today my Barnie flock appears to be 14 boys and only 6 girls. These are the oldest and the most expensive since I got them as chicks from Greenfire and the others I hatched from eggs.

With the cost of feed and available space, I don't want to keep 14 roosters all winter. Since I'm very new to chicken breeding I'm hoping I can get help from more experienced breeders to decide which to cull.

Below are four pictures of each of the two blue roosters. The top row is Albert. The second row is Augustus.



And here are the three standard double laced:



BTW, I'll be taking at least a few of these to the local fairs in the fall. I'm hoping to meet some experienced breeders, as far as I know at this time there are not many serious breeders in the area. Mostly just mixed backyard flocks for laying and meat.

Thanks again for any feedback!!

The bodies on all these look good. It is hard to judge birds by pictures, but I sure don't see anything right off that appears to be a problem. I can't knit pick a young bird. Type wise everything looks on course to be good birds. I have seen a lot of these with flat lower chests....none here.

Walt

 

[islandgal99]

I can't recall if this has been posted here or not, four legged barnevelder. Appears to be real... I wonder what it grew up to look like. http://www.drainlinks.com/four-legged-chicken/

 

[Helen in the Desert]

I can't recall if this has been posted here or not, four legged barnevelder. Appears to be real... I wonder what it grew up to look like. http://www.drainlinks.com/four-legged-chicken/

Wonder if it survived. I guess that is what happens when you try to hatch a double yoker

 

[islandgal99]

I seeking some advice about linebreeding, outcrossing, and when and if outcrossing is necessary. I had no choice but to start with an outcross as my starting point, as I only ended up with males from one line and females from another. Up here in Canada we don't have many Barnevelders so I started with what I could get. I am planning my breeding pens for next year so deciding on what to keep and what to let go as my space is limited - my babies are 5 weeks old (lol) and trying to figure out what is best. I was able to obtain some chicks this year also from the father line and am excited to see how they turn out.

So far the outcross looks to be pretty good. I think I can safely say there are chicks in the brooder that based on what I see so far are better than the parents. The boys look like the combs already will be better than dads and they are big and masculine. The feathers on the pullets are coming in already nicely laced and nicer than I recall the chicks from last year. All the chicks are big,chunky and robust. The boys look like boys, the girls look like girls or at least I think - I tagged them all based on the white chest theory, so far it looks like mine are autosexing but I'll find out for sure when the crowing starts. I do have one that has a half white chest, and a half cream chest - don't know what that means!

The father line is more utility and that line lays a nice dark egg, the father would have been from a dark egg however there is some pretty spectacular laced birds from this line also so not entirely utility but I will call it utility as they have not been shown and were not bred for showing. He had very nice lacing as a youngster, he is quite dark now. His biggest assets are his size, awesome yellow legs, his bone and breadth, structure is good, his attitude and instinct and his utility aspects are awesome as he would have been delicious and was very meaty as a youngster. Of the four breeds I raised last year, he was the only one that I would have considered eating at 4 months as he was heavy and felt very meaty. He almost went to the stew pot when my neighbors started complaining about roosters...I just keep them in a bit longer now in the mornings seems to have appeased the masses. I chose him over another smaller male that had a better comb, smaller bone structure, and better tailset, and wasn't as dark but I didn't want small pretty birds that can't be eaten. The biggest faults on this guy is his comb is less than ideal and his tail is only slightly high when comparing him to other barnies but his outline still appears all barnevelder.

The females are from a show line and line those birds do very well in shows. The females are very correct in profile, have decent bone and were the thriftiest of chicks from that hatched, actually they were all massive mooses as chicks and I thought they were all boys, they had huge yellow legs as chicks. And they did not get cocci at all unlike some of the other breeds I had at that time. They have good attitudes, not 'featherbrained', and are easy keepers, they are slightly on the small side and need work on feathering but do have decent doublelaced feathers throughout. The hens I have so far fit the bill for dual purpose and I have not had any health problems with these barnevelders, they are very good keepers, these hens were the last to start laying of the 4 breeds last fall, but have layed consistently 6-7 small-medium sized light coloured eggs a week per hen since they started laying, including through the winter without lights and are still laying in the heat, the eggs are not large but have good shells and good shape, great fertility and hatchability up around 95% for both. I have sent messages to the breeders asking for more specifics on the lines so I know what I am working with, and this time will write it down as I keep getting it confused with some of the Welsummer info. It's not as clear cut as some of the lines in the states where you know exactly what you are working with.

I was thinking of keeping three breeding pens. Keep the male line, as I do have some female chicks this year from the male line I was able to acquire, and breed them to the boy I already have. And maybe keep a cockeral from that line too? And call that 'line one'. Breed the dad to the daughters, call that line 2. This line would combine some of the show traits with the utility aspects and this should have some darker egg layers produced. Breed a son (already have one that stands out) to the mothers and call that line three. This should produce birds with utility traits but that could be considered for show. Does that make sense? Is there a better way to do it? How long would I keep a 'line' breeding sons/mothers and daughters/dads before switching it up? Should I rotate roosters from different pens every year? How many breeding pens would be ideal for this scenario? Or is it just best to jumble it all up and keep the best and go from there keeping only one or two really good roosters and only the best of hens regardless of the lines as they are not distinct?

My goal is really decent looking birds with really good utility aspects, so good weights, good laying and good keepers. But if I was to have to make a choice of utility vs pretty in any one bird, I will choose utility. And I would love both. I would like to be able to take them to shows and do well, not getting laughed out of the building but I don't want to compromise any utility features for show features so won't need to leave the building with the top placings to be happy, it would be fun to get out and go to shows. (I'm still crazy nervous about showing and disease, so still have not decided if I will show - or if I do will only show birds I will sell at the show so they don't come home - I'll cross that bridge later).

Thanks in advance for providing your input. Cheers, Theresa

 

[fowlman01]

Theresa,

,Have you posted pictures of these birds? You have to use what you have or in the words of the old timer breeder Ralph Sturgeon...Start where you are with what you have.

You need a plan and you need good record keeping. IMO you only need two breeding pens unless you want more birds out, but use the same linebreeding. Father to daughter and mother to son. You can do this forever if you cull hard and keep good records. They can be brought together to add vigor. I'm not big on bringing other things into a breeding "to increase vigor". This kind of line breeding can result in birds that look very much alike after a bit....so you want them to look good. Read all you can about how to do this. Try to find someone to guide you. If they don't advocate good record keeping, find someone else.

Walt

 

[Anniebee]

Well I don't know how you all feel about all this, but I'm sure sad that we won't see Trish on here until fall, although I don't blame her one bit. I'm more of a lurker instead of a talker, but I'm choked right now. Maybe Trish is not a 20 year veteran, but that doesn't make her a bad person nor a bad breeder, and just look at her birds - she has AWESOME birds that scream out "I'm a Barnevelder". I watched this thread almost since it started, and have been reading every reply since I started following it and have read it entirely, some sections more than once. I have LOVED this thread as it's been so positive and encouraging, I have learned so much here.

Something changed a few weeks ago and I just simply don't get it. Someone please explain what the purpose was to insult and belittle one of the very people who have made this one of the most enjoyable threads on BYC? Apparently if you ask a question now, you get SLAMMED. It doesn't matter if someone has been breeding quality birds for a year or for 20, if they are enthusiastic and willing to share information freely and without being judgmental, cruel or rude, give their time freely, if they are constantly working on improving on what they have in their breeding pens, AND they inspire and bring new people to a once dying breed, they are good for the breed and good for the poultry world. I don't own Trish's birds, but her enthusiasm and excitement is infectious, her dedication to answering questions and helping 'newbies' has been so incredible and I hope I can spread that infectious desire to breed better birds to the world around me too.

I don't know where you all come from, but in my neck of the woods, respect is earned. Doesn't matter what titles you have on your wall, what you have done in your past, how good you say you are...its your ACTIONS that speak loudest. The actions of Trish on this thread since I have started here, her generosity and desire to learn and share about the breed she loves (and she ONLY has one breed by choice), the time she spends to posting photos and sharing information, leaves me at the end of the day with a whole lot of respect for Trish. And her enthusiasm, and her hard work to create a "complete" Barnevelder package, no matter what color her chickens breasts are, is what this breed needs more than anything. And now she has been pushed out of here, hopefully only for a short while, by someone who isn't usually part of this thread and it begs the question...why? I just don't get it.

If this sort of thing continues to happen, Barnevelders will die again (as it was said, this is the only thing resembling a breed club right now), and if this is what happens in other breeds, poultry showing and breeding will be dead, the genetics handed over to the big three and heritage birds will be gone. Who would want to do anything with this sort of treatment? So go ahead, discourage the newcomers, discourage the enthusism, toss insults and calls us amateurs, continue to belittle us...the poultry world as you know it will die with you when you go if there's nobody inspired to follow along.

Well written - well said ... and agreed. Good onya Islandgal 99. Having been involved in the breeding and showing of cats and dogs in the past ( NOT chickens - never chickens ) ... I have to say there is a clique that forms and is inherent in every showing & breeding circle, no matter what the animal / bird class it is. It's inevitable, and unfortunately continues. Ego's come into the equation, very much so. Not slamming anyone in particular here - THAT'S FOR SURE ... but Islandgal makes very good points. Why vilify someone who is enthusiastic and enjoys her chickens, hatching, raising, breeding etc. Trisha has been doing her best for the breed - as she sees it. Everyone has their own opinions and has a right to them. I cannot add any more as Islandgal has said it all. The Barnevelder is a really beautiful bird ... and as time goes on ( if you are all genuine to see the breed prevail ) ... whether black breasted or black with lacing breasted is best or not - WILL BE SORTED OUT BY STANDARDS COMMITTEES - in the long run. So please - let's drop the nasties and get on with improving your own breeding - experimenting if you will ... and share GOOD points - not argumentative and unkind remarks here.

 

[Anniebee]

I don't understand why no one is taking Chris's advice: Dont' get hung up on the chest.

The most important thing is to get the birds in front of judges....start the dialog with judges. Do the promotion.....give the judges a Barnie Standard before the judging.

The Ko Shamo bantam people do this before every show.
They also talk up their breed with anyone who will talk to them. The Ko Shamo calls for split wings which are a DQ in every other breed of chickens. This was a huge hurdle to overcome with most judges. Guess what? Judges now love them and many are breeding them. Even Jeff Halbach the past President of the ABA......who once said "no way a bird with split wings will ever be in our Standard"...well guess what? He now loves them too and reported on now many he saw in a show in Germany in the ABA Yearbook. Last weekend I attended a very small show in Erureka CA which is in the middle of nowhere and the breed that had the most entries by far? Ko Shamo's and they are not even recognized by the APA/ABA yet.

There were 75 of them at the ABA National this year. Now that is how a breed club promotes a breed. If you really care about this breed do something. And not to burst any bubbles, but griping on BYC will not get it done.

Walt

Absolutely NO offence intended here Walt - but it's been my experience in show rings that judges LISTEN TO NO-ONE. So dialogue with them is probably 99% pointless. You may be lucky enough to get one to listen ... but I'd bet on it not happening. A good suggestion, granted - but one that is going to most likely result in frustration and disappointment. They are a breed unto themselves - the judges that is. They speak - people listen - and people change their breeding habits to suit the NEEDS of the judges .......... GRRR. I have no idea or opinions on how to change this sorry state of affairs. Perhaps Ko Shamo ( being Japanese ) have a more gentlemanly point of view - respect for opinions etc. which is why they LISTEN. In Western societies this kind of respect rarely exists. Enough said for now.

Cheers ............

 

[fowlman01]

Absolutely NO offence intended here Walt - but it's been my experience in show rings that judges LISTEN TO NO-ONE. So dialogue with them is probably 99% pointless. You may be lucky enough to get one to listen ... but I'd bet on it not happening. A good suggestion, granted - but one that is going to most likely result in frustration and disappointment. They are a breed unto themselves - the judges that is. They speak - people listen - and people change their breeding habits to suit the NEEDS of the judges .......... GRRR. I have no idea or opinions on how to change this sorry state of affairs. Perhaps Ko Shamo ( being Japanese ) have a more gentlemanly point of view - respect for opinions etc. which is why they LISTEN. In Western societies this kind of respect rarely exists. Enough said for now.

Cheers ............

I don't know the judges culture of Australia, but most judges here are helpful. The Standard is the bible in the shows here, not a judges opinion. An exhibitor in the US can file a protest if the judge does not go by the APA Standard. The Ko Shamo is a Japanese breed, but the breed has nothing to do with how judges act. It is the judges themselves.. No one has to change what the Standard says to agree with a poultry judge here in the USA.

Walt

 

[Anniebee]

I don't know the judges culture of Australia, but most judges here are helpful. The Standard is the bible in the shows here, not a judges opinion. An exhibitor in the US can file a protest if the judge does not go by the APA Standard. The Ko Shamo is a Japanese breed, but the breed has nothing to do with how judges act. It is the judges themselves.. No one has to change what the Standard says to agree with a poultry judge here in the USA.

Walt

Walt - well then, chicken / poultry breeders are indeed fortunate. As BYC is not a site for dogs / cats, I will not press the point. !!! Judges here of course have to obey by the rules, the standards set in anything, but tend to 'persuade' by their continued selection of a particular type ( of whatever ) for first prizes etc. and so breeders go for that 'look' ( in whatever ). Perhaps we are fortunate with our chicken judges too .... I sure hope so. I have friends in the U.S. who have had similar experiences in shows with judges as I mentioned - but none of them show chickens ! So my apologies for speaking out of turn; it apparently doesn't apply to poultry showing and standards.

p.s. I meant to say "Perhaps Ko Shamo judges ( being Japanese ) etc....." and have had a good laugh at myself for leaving out the word 'judges'. I had read that Ko Shamo is a breed of bantam (?) chicken elsewhere on this site. They certainly are unusual looking birds.

 

[Helen in the Desert]

Walt - well then, chicken / poultry breeders are indeed fortunate. As BYC is not a site for dogs / cats, I will not press the point. !!! Judges here of course have to obey by the rules, the standards set in anything, but tend to 'persuade' by their continued selection of a particular type ( of whatever ) for first prizes etc. and so breeders go for that 'look' ( in whatever ). Perhaps we are fortunate with our chicken judges too .... I sure hope so. I have friends in the U.S. who have had similar experiences in shows with judges as I mentioned - but none of them show chickens ! So my apologies for speaking out of turn; it apparently doesn't apply to poultry showing and standards.

p.s. I meant to say "Perhaps Ko Shamo judges ( being Japanese ) etc....." and have had a good laugh at myself for leaving out the word 'judges'. I had read that Ko Shamo is a breed of bantam (?) chicken elsewhere on this site. They certainly are unusual looking birds.

I have to say that for dogs/cats/horses the show ring is highly political and you are correct. When you get into small animals and livestock it gets better and the poultry show ring is much better and the judges just as nerdy about their poultry as the people showing, so the environment is much different.