Barnevelder breeders lets work together and improve the breed

[Dr Bjorn Netland]

Walt,
I agree. Most judges here in the US are helpful and are willing to listen (Malone, Thompson, the late Cooke and Sorensen among others), but there are a few who don't. One might conclude that people are people, and they come in all kinds or varieties, both in Australia and the US or elsewhere. A couple of very negative experiences up front may color one's view of an entire group of people. Confusion and disagreement about standard descriptions may be one thing, and that just adds to the "personal preference" thing that every human being is subject to (total objectivity is not possible). Meanwhile, we should all enjoy our hobby and our birds and just accept the fact that we live in an imperfect world, while we may keep striving (in a civilized and good-spirited manner) to make whatever improvements we can.

 

[fowlman01]

Walt - well then, chicken / poultry breeders are indeed fortunate. As BYC is not a site for dogs / cats, I will not press the point. !!! Judges here of course have to obey by the rules, the standards set in anything, but tend to 'persuade' by their continued selection of a particular type ( of whatever ) for first prizes etc. and so breeders go for that 'look' ( in whatever ). Perhaps we are fortunate with our chicken judges too .... I sure hope so. I have friends in the U.S. who have had similar experiences in shows with judges as I mentioned - but none of them show chickens ! So my apologies for speaking out of turn; it apparently doesn't apply to poultry showing and standards.

p.s. I meant to say "Perhaps Ko Shamo judges ( being Japanese ) etc....." and have had a good laugh at myself for leaving out the word 'judges'. I had read that Ko Shamo is a breed of bantam (?) chicken elsewhere on this site. They certainly are unusual looking birds.

My wife has shown dogs for 25 years. It is a whole different world......a world that I don't want any part of. Here in the States there is nothing on the cage telling the judge who owns the chicken. Exhibitors are not allowed in the area when judges are judging.

The Ko Shamo's are indeed a bantam and a bantam with a ton of personality. I used that breed as an example as, the breeders are doing a fantastic job promoting them.....and they are getting great feedback from judges even though part of the description of the bird is calling for a trait that is a DQ in any other breed.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

Walt,
I agree. Most judges here in the US are helpful and are willing to listen (Malone, Thompson, the late Cooke and Sorensen among others), but there are a few who don't. One might conclude that people are people, and they come in all kinds or varieties, both in Australia and the US or elsewhere. A couple of very negative experiences up front may color one's view of an entire group of people. Confusion and disagreement about standard descriptions may be one thing, and that just adds to the "personal preference" thing that every human being is subject to (total objectivity is not possible). Meanwhile, we should all enjoy our hobby and our birds and just accept the fact that we live in an imperfect world, while we may keep striving (in a civilized and good-spirited manner) to make whatever improvements we can.

Agreed. As long as we are humans, we will always have personal preferences. Not only preferences, but skill levels and the ability to teach. Most of us are not particularly good teachers....it is a gift IMO. There are a few judges here that are not interested in teaching, but most are pretty good about it.

Here is a quote from Ken Cooke to me many years ago. "Walt, people like you now, why in the world would you want to become a judge"? IMO judges are only as good as their mentors....for the most part. Ken was one of the very few judges that understood that it is a good thing to have your Standard out and look at it when starting a class. Some judges view that as a weakness....those judges are usually bad judges. Personally I would rather have a person know the correct answer, rather than guess. There is not a lot of people that can remember 400 pages of technical info.

Walt

Walt

 

[mountainvieworchards]

Hi Royce

There has been a lot written on the thread this past week and I won't address all of it. But where it concerns me I will respond. I have never written that I don't show my birds, because I do show them. Nor have I written that I don't plan to show my Barnevelders because I am showing them this summer, and I am not sure why you have repeated that despite an earlier post of mine to correct it. Maybe you missed that, understandable.

I have been showing my Barnevelders mainly at the PNPA shows (APA judged shows in Washington and Oregon) over the past few years, sometimes in the fall and sometimes in the spring, But I also show at our county fair and have for the past few years as well. I also show my Plymouth rocks, marans and Sussex. I find the shows to be lots of fun, and a good way to spend time with my two young sons. I think I mainly go to shows for the last reason.

I have not had the pleasure to run into you at the PNPA shows, though I know you are in my region and from our past conversations in BYC you and I have even discussed this. Perhaps you have forgotten, no biggie. Hopefully we will be able to meet at a show and show our birds and compare notes.

Perhaps you misunderstood me, when I said "I am not overly concerned about shows" or something to that effect, and it is true and perhaps you misunderstood that to mean that I don't show my birds. That's fair and I won't get mad at you for that, it's an honest mistake. What I meant was going to shows and winning ribbons is not my first motivation in keeping chickens, and in particular a rarer breed like Barnevelders. If it were for competition I would be sorely disappointed. Every time I have shown my Barnies, I was the only one showing the breed, except once when someone else was showing bantams at the same show. Easy to win 1's when you are the only one. My kids love ribbons, I couldn't care less for them.

We have won best class and reserve class for Barnies, Marans, and English champ with our Sussex, so there was some competition within Class but not much in breed. When we did win our class it was usually a weak class and I can see your point about your having a hard time getting in a local show with the requisite number of birds in your class to get on the APA list, since poultry shows in the Pacific Northwest do not garner the numbers of entries that I read about elsewhere. Nonetheless, the boys get the ribbons and they go home happy, I am proud of them for their work and commitment to the chickens and it is a nice time we share. And of course them coming home and smiling with their ribbons helps mom ignore the roosters crowing. Ok, so hopefully we can put that bit about me not showing behind us and not have it come up again.

Andy

 

[Tailfeathers]

Theresa,

I don't have a lot of time right now but would be happy to discuss this with ya more in detail on the phone or something later on.

I would suggest you start first by sitting down and putting pen to paper. Write out your goals for your Barnie Breeding Program. Think about all the things you consider important and desire, and then prioritize them on paper. Remember, there are strengths and weaknesses in every bird. Try to build your plan around keeping the strengths and improving on or eliminating the weaknesses.

Personally, since you are just starting out and intend to be a long time breeder of Barnies, I wouldn't be too considered about having to start with a crossing of two lines of birds. Start your own lines now. After you put your first matches together, the offspring are gonna be yours anyways. So you might as well start out with that in mind now.

You mentioned "decent" and "utility" and some other phrases and obviously those are in the eye of the beholder. So I would be encouraging you to define those and then match your birds accordingly.

I am not a fan of flock breeding and would highly recommend the linebreeding route. I gotta run now so here's just a quick example for suggestion purposes only. Perhaps you have one line that you keep for the darker eggs and bigger birds, the second line you keep for the yellow legs and crisper lacing, and then you take the best of those two lines and move them into a third line hopefully resulting in a good combination of both.

It sounds like your space is somewhat limited but remember with toe punching and rotating of roosters, you could fairly easily have up to 15 lines by rotating the roosters. It takes longer because you have to clean out the hens before putting the other rooster over them but depending on what the birds look like and how much consistency there is amongst them, you may or may not want to do that.

When I started out with my WBS Ameraucanas, my first year of breeding had 15 lines. Eventually, thru identifying and eliminating a number of traits, I got down to four and am working on getting down to two. At present I only have one line of Barnies. But next year, God willing, I'm gonna be back to two. I recommend always keeping at least two lines. For one, you always have a backup and for two, you can outcross to your own other line and never need to bring in "new blood".

God Bless,

 

[Tailfeathers]

Hi Royce

There has been a lot written on the thread this past week and I won't address all of it. But where it concerns me I will respond. I have never written that I don't show my birds, because I do show them. Nor have I written that I don't plan to show my Barnevelders because I am showing them this summer, and I am not sure why you have repeated that despite an earlier post of mine to correct it. Maybe you missed that, understandable.

I have been showing my Barnevelders mainly at the PNPA shows (APA judged shows in Washington and Oregon) over the past few years, sometimes in the fall and sometimes in the spring, But I also show at our county fair and have for the past few years as well. I also show my Plymouth rocks, marans and Sussex. I find the shows to be lots of fun, and a good way to spend time with my two young sons. I think I mainly go to shows for the last reason.

I have not had the pleasure to run into you at the PNPA shows, though I know you are in my region and from our past conversations in BYC you and I have even discussed this. Perhaps you have forgotten, no biggie. Hopefully we will be able to meet at a show and show our birds and compare notes.

Perhaps you misunderstood me, when I said "I am not overly concerned about shows" or something to that effect, and it is true and perhaps you misunderstood that to mean that I don't show my birds. That's fair and I won't get mad at you for that, it's an honest mistake. What I meant was going to shows and winning ribbons is not my first motivation in keeping chickens, and in particular a rarer breed like Barnevelders. If it were for competition I would be sorely disappointed. Every time I have shown my Barnies, I was the only one showing the breed, except once when someone else was showing bantams at the same show. Easy to win 1's when you are the only one. My kids love ribbons, I couldn't care less for them.

We have won best class and reserve class for Barnies, Marans, and English champ with our Sussex, so there was some competition within Class but not much in breed. When we did win our class it was usually a weak class and I can see your point about your having a hard time getting in a local show with the requisite number of birds in your class to get on the APA list, since poultry shows in the Pacific Northwest do not garner the numbers of entries that I read about elsewhere. Nonetheless, the boys get the ribbons and they go home happy, I am proud of them for their work and commitment to the chickens and it is a nice time we share. And of course them coming home and smiling with their ribbons helps mom ignore the roosters crowing. Ok, so hopefully we can put that bit about me not showing behind us and not have it come up again.

Andy

Andy, I don't recall saying you, specifically, never showed your birds. If I did, I do apologize. I have read that you show your birds. I'm not gonna go back and take the time to reread everything I said so I'll just say "Sorry. Hope you'll forgive me." and leave it at that.

I too think anyone showing chickens for the ribbons, plaques, prestige, or what-have-you is missing the boat. I go to shows for a few reasons. For me, my biggest competition is myself. I'm not showing to "compete" with anyone. I like to place my birds before the judge sees them and then find out how they see my birds as compared to my own placing. I have also learned the hard way that showing birds helps prevent Barn Blindness. I enjoy the fellowship with several folks there and it is an opportunity for me to see them. It is an opportunity for me to get away from this place for 2-3x a year. And it is an opportunity for me to show others what God has created - not me. If my Barnies do well at a show, it's because of Him and what He did - not me.

God Bless,

 

[islandgal99]

Theresa,

I don't have a lot of time right now but would be happy to discuss this with ya more in detail on the phone or something later on.

I would suggest you start first by sitting down and putting pen to paper. Write out your goals for your Barnie Breeding Program. Think about all the things you consider important and desire, and then prioritize them on paper. Remember, there are strengths and weaknesses in every bird. Try to build your plan around keeping the strengths and improving on or eliminating the weaknesses.

Personally, since you are just starting out and intend to be a long time breeder of Barnies, I wouldn't be too considered about having to start with a crossing of two lines of birds. Start your own lines now. After you put your first matches together, the offspring are gonna be yours anyways. So you might as well start out with that in mind now.

You mentioned "decent" and "utility" and some other phrases and obviously those are in the eye of the beholder. So I would be encouraging you to define those and then match your birds accordingly.

I am not a fan of flock breeding and would highly recommend the linebreeding route. I gotta run now so here's just a quick example for suggestion purposes only. Perhaps you have one line that you keep for the darker eggs and bigger birds, the second line you keep for the yellow legs and crisper lacing, and then you take the best of those two lines and move them into a third line hopefully resulting in a good combination of both.

It sounds like your space is somewhat limited but remember with toe punching and rotating of roosters, you could fairly easily have up to 15 lines by rotating the roosters. It takes longer because you have to clean out the hens before putting the other rooster over them but depending on what the birds look like and how much consistency there is amongst them, you may or may not want to do that.

When I started out with my WBS Ameraucanas, my first year of breeding had 15 lines. Eventually, thru identifying and eliminating a number of traits, I got down to four and am working on getting down to two. At present I only have one line of Barnies. But next year, God willing, I'm gonna be back to two. I recommend always keeping at least two lines. For one, you always have a backup and for two, you can outcross to your own other line and never need to bring in "new blood".

God Bless,

Theresa,

,Have you posted pictures of these birds? You have to use what you have or in the words of the old timer breeder Ralph Sturgeon...Start where you are with what you have.

You need a plan and you need good record keeping. IMO you only need two breeding pens unless you want more birds out, but use the same linebreeding. Father to daughter and mother to son. You can do this forever if you cull hard and keep good records. They can be brought together to add vigor. I'm not big on bringing other things into a breeding "to increase vigor". This kind of line breeding can result in birds that look very much alike after a bit....so you want them to look good. Read all you can about how to do this. Try to find someone to guide you. If they don't advocate good record keeping, find someone else.

Walt

Thank you both for your responses. I think I posted pictures here, it would have been some time ago. I am very pleased to see what I am seeing thus far in my hatches this year, and I think I can safely say my first generation already are showing signs of being better than the parents though time will tell. And the two lines I have started with both have traits I really think are important, I hope the combination will bring the best of both worlds and I couldn't be more pleased with the birds I have. Though I called one line "utility" and also used the word "decent" when referring to the birds, I intended it to mean I'm starting with a lot of good and both lines have truly beautiful birds, AND there is much to work on, I can see areas I can improve for sure. But there is no doubt, with my boy and girls, that they are barnevelders. A more ideal situation in my mind would have been to obtain older breeding birds from a really established breeder and starting from there, I would have known what I was dealing with, and the start would have been easier, but that wasn't an option I could find. Also ideally I could have started with a large number of hens and a number of roosters to choose, having more to select from, and kept 2 breeding lines to start, but that wasn't the way the cards played out. So I get the likely more challenging but definitely more rewarding road ahead of me. The line the male comes from has never been shown, and those birds do have some traits I really want in my birds like dark egg laying, calm sensible hens, and really meaty carcasses along with a nice barnevelder type. The hens are really pretty, really strongly stamped in type and other than working on improving on some feathering, they already exhibit many of the utility traits I want such as good egg laying and easy keepers.

I bred dogs for 20 some odd years and know outcrosses of lines can be good though they can be bad, it all depends on how the genes all come together. I had one outcross litter that produced OUTSTANDING dogs combining the best of the lines, and one outcross was nothing less than short of a disaster and brought out the worst of the lines! So that's probably where my focus regarding lines come from. I must admit I have a little bit of "line" envy when folks talk very specifically about the origins of their birds, and I also realize that after a couple generations the focus can change and the 'line' can take off down a whole new path, becoming something totally different than what the originator intended.

I like the idea of writing down the goals and priorities, I do that elsewhere so it makes sense to do that here also...you should see my notes regarding my two GSD girls tracking training, everything from maps to weather conditions on a training day, my hubby thinks I'm OCD about it. So I will do that this in this next while, as babies grow, do more reading, make some plans because it won't be too long until I have to start selecting keepers. It will definitely help when it comes to culling. I've been taking many photos of these babies and labelling them, a visual form of notekeeping so that's a start. But I see now I need to do more.

I guess where I am starting adds to the adventure and ultimately the joy when I get to where I want to be, so that's 50? years from now? Lol.

Cheers,

 

[RachaelS]

I would like to apologize for the disrespect I showed in my previous post. It was unacceptable and I should not have done that.

Trisha has a true passion for Barnevelders, she has most likely read every publication, story, genetic report, post, sentimental story, etc about them. She has been breeding, Barnevelders and nothing else (which is rare), with this passion for over 5 years. She has been helpful, thoughtful and encouraging to anyone that wants to be part of this thread. Her thoughts and opinions deserve respect. Her knowledge should be valued even if one does agree with it, just as it is with more experience breeders/judges, that is not meant as a jab just a fact. This thread is the only avenue to talk about items such as the SOP standard. It should be a safe place to ask questions and challenge anything. Nothing may come of it, but it should be a safe place.

The SOP is not a Bible, I am NOT taking a dig, I know that term is used loosely. It is a guideline that, unlike the Bible, can be changed. It was written by humans, without divine intervention. It should be questioned and when appropriate changed. That is not disrespectful to anyone, just that things changed and new ideas come to life and it can be changed.

The Barnevelder is a stunning multi-purpose breed which is why I fell in love with it in the first place. I would love to see additional educational post by everyone that has a passion for the Barnevelder.

 

[DiamondDust]

I'd love to add pictures of my young Barnies to this thread but I can't seem to figure out how to do it...help?

 

[Apdeb]

There is an icon w mountain that comes up when you hit reply
Choose it then embed or upload
And voila