Barnevelder breeders lets work together and improve the breed

[ChickenExtreme]

Wow, there's some nice birds on hear

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[tls_ranch]

oops double post.. darn computer.

Trisha

 

[tls_ranch]

Hi, I am new to the Barnevelder breed. I saw a picture of on my friend in Montana had just got, and i fell in love. So I ordered some eggs on e-bay. 5 beautiful babies hatched and are doing well. (3 wyandottes too.) Not sure if I have boys or girls, but my favorite one might be a boy. Can anyone help in guessing? Thanks!

Welcome to the Barnie thread!! You've got a handsome boy there. It looks like he has a nice wide breast and I like his head too. His head is nice and round with a short powerful beak. He's just a baby, but I like to see those traits on the young chicks. I really don't like weak skulls and beaks...those chicks tend to end up "crow headed". I was told that it's easy to loose good heads in your flock if you use a weak headed roo for breeding.

Trisha

 

[tls_ranch]

She's so gorgeous!!! and adorable with her chicks.
I wish I lived closer to you, I would take some of those chicks off of your hands.
am in serious lust with this breed.

Thanks She's been my favorite hen for the past 4 years. A good layer and can be a good momma too.

Trisha

 

[tls_ranch]

Ok... I want to start a "debate" on the APA standards for the Barnevelder. The current US standard calls for a Laced breast in the male. But, I believe the dutch standard calls for a solid black breast or at least near solid black.

I've been looking for info on other message boards too. Here's some quotes I found about Laced vs solid breasts in Barnevelders from an Australian based message group. Apparently they have the same issue with breast lacing, but the other way around. Their roos tend to have laced breasts rather than solid breasts like the Dutch.

"There is absolutely nothing wrong in using cockerels with more colour on his breast. There is nothing written anywhere that dictates the amount of colour on the breast. Completely laced cockerels are just as acceptable as those with only a small amount of colour. Some breeders prefer using birds with much less colour as there appears to be a connection to lacing in females but there is nothing as striking as a male with a perfectly laced breast and this is my preference in the show pen (all other things being equal).

The confusion is added to when you consider the Dutch Standard calls for completely black breasts on males, another striking colour pattern and one that I would be happy to adopt (why the Dutch Standard isn't universally followed is beond me). My personal feeling is that males with only a small mount of colour on the breast fall short of both standards. Having said that I keep this type of male for use in my breeding pens for balance.

and


"I guess the main problem with our adopting the Dutch Standard is that our birds did not originate in Holland but from England where males have marked breasts.

In the whole scheme of things trying to breed better laced birds in this country is a bit like beating your head against a rock and then against the adjacent hard place. Our birds just are not well laced. Every now and again someone (often a judge) will say to me how lovely the lacing is on my birds. The problem is that I know it's rubbish! I just don't think we have the genetics in this country to come even remotely close to the lacing you see on the top Dutch birds. I'd be ecstatic to have lacing matching the depiction of a faulty feather in the Standard!

David" (David is a prominent breeder of Barnevelders hopefully I don't upset him for quoting him"


Now, for what I think..... I feel strongly that Barnevelder males with heavily laced breasts will = females with messy lacing. The lack of melanizers or in some cases Co- columbian or even e+ (wild type) is causing the red to show in the males. Co and e+ is due to outcrossing at some point to wyandottes or welsummers. The lack of melanizers= messy lacing in females.

Also, genetically a barnevelder male should not show double lacing on the breast...unless you have a mutant or henny feathered roo.

I'm not against laced breasts as my own roosters do have some breast lacing deep under their breast feathers, but the black edge is just so thick the red doesn't show. Many US females do seem to have too heavy of lacing, but it is possible to select for more of a balanced color..not too dark..not to red.

From what I've seen, most Dutch Barnevelder roos have more solid black breasts too and the females have nice "balanced" lacing to go along with it. I would be against developing pullet/cockerel breeding lines... that kind of system just causes too much confusion to the general public.

Should we attempt to change the US APA breed standards???? I don't know...But, Barnevelders are more of a DUTCH breed...not British. Also, The Marans group got the APA to set standards to reflect the "true" breed standard of the "French Marans".

I'm going to try to get in contact with some Dutch breeders to see what they say about Black vs Laced breasts in males. I have yet to track down any of the books on Barnevelder breeding, but I think Andy has some...maybe he can add some info.

I would LOVE to hear from anyone who has info on this subject

Trisha

 

[ChickenExtreme]

I got a silly question. If the BV chickens you gave aren't double laced, does it mean that they're not pure BV?

 

[tls_ranch]

I got a silly question. If the BV chickens you gave aren't double laced, does it mean that they're not pure BV?

Post pics if you can. Barnevelder hens should be double-laced. The males will be a completely different pattern (because they are male) and will not show the full double-laced pattern like a hen.

It takes awhile and several moults for chicks to get their adult plumage. But, there are also signs early on as young chicks that give "hints" at the quality of lacing.

Trisha

 

[ChickenExtreme]

Post pics if you can. Barnevelder hens should be double-laced. The males will be a completely different pattern (because they are male) and will not show the full double-laced pattern like a hen.

It takes awhile and several moults for chicks to get their adult plumage. But, there are also signs early on as young chicks that give "hints" at the quality of lacing.

Trisha

Cool, thanks. How old do they have to be to moult? And how long before the next moult, I'm fairly new to chickens, and BV's are a new breed completely for me. I been having a little trouble uploading pics.

 

[AyaBlodgett]

"I guess the main problem with our adopting the Dutch Standard is that our birds did not originate in Holland but from England where males have marked breasts.

In the whole scheme of things trying to breed better laced birds in this country is a bit like beating your head against a rock and then against the adjacent hard place. Our birds just are not well laced. Every now and again someone (often a judge) will say to me how lovely the lacing is on my birds. The problem is that I know it's rubbish! I just don't think we have the genetics in this country to come even remotely close to the lacing you see on the top Dutch birds. I'd be ecstatic to have lacing matching the depiction of a faulty feather in the Standard!

David" (David is a prominent breeder of Barnevelders hopefully I don't upset him for quoting him"

That makes so much sense. I wonder if we could get it changed in America? Then we could perfect what we already have instead of looking for a gene that isn't there. Aya

 

[tls_ranch]

Quote: They should show pretty much what their general pattern is by the they are about 4 (+/-) months old. Pullets can go through a "final" juvenile moult right before they lay. Then sometimes the lacing will change with their first "true" or adult moult. That's one of the reasons breeders recommend not breeding pullets, but waiting until they are at least 2 year's old.