BBR Cubalaya genetics question

El Exorcisto

In the Brooder
8 Years
Jul 23, 2011
33
4
24
Do cubalaya carry the mahogany gene? They look to be deeper red than standard wheaten (especially the hens) but they don't hold a canle to mahogany faverolles. Is it just not as dark a red in general exhibited in cubalaya, or are they just straight wheaten?
 

cashdl

Songster
11 Years
Nov 25, 2008
2,181
41
214
Willits
yes they carry wheaten.


Genetically they are supposed to be eWh/eWh s+/s+ Ap/Ap Mh/Mh Ml/Ml I believe.


Same as the Araucana.


Lanae
 

saladin

Songster
10 Years
Mar 30, 2009
2,831
148
221
the South
There are various established Cubalaya lines around the country. They are all somewhat different than one another. To say they all carry one thing or another (other than Wheaten) is just a guess.

For example: The Cubalaya Cock is suppose to have a hackle that shades to golden where the hackle feather flow over the shoulders. Some lines do, but several lines are solid deep chestnut the whole way.

Some lines show hackle stripping in the cock others do not. All lines show hackle stripping in the female.
 

gallorojo

Songster
11 Years
Oct 15, 2009
924
76
221
Southfarthing
Saladin is correct in that there is a lot of variation within the breed, some birds are part true wild type duckwing partridge whatever you care to call it. I saw some non wheaten pullets just a few days ago actually. As far as what is described in the standard, they should be wheaten, plus mahogany, plus autosomal red/ pheomelanin, plus probably some sort of extra melanizers. That would give a bird that matched the standard. However, many of the birds are heterozygous for a lot of these traits, so without test mating, it can be hard to say what you have exactly and what exactly you will get when crossing. My info comes from my own crossing experiments plus primarily the Reeder book on color genetics.

No, they are not plain old regular wheaten!!
 

DaveK

Songster
9 Years
Jun 19, 2010
357
14
100
I have to wonder if the SOP described birds would carry mahogany. When that factor is mentioned in connection with other breeds the effect is a general darkening of all red tones. Our SOP Cubalayas are tio be that bright flashing fire color attained by thr shading from skull to the shawl or bottom of the hackle. When gotten right (and as Saladin has said a lot of them are an even color from top down) there isn't much that is brighter which to me seems prettyinconsistent with mahogany. Now, John Castagnetti's striped hackled stippled hen line was a very rich, dark color and I could easily believe mahogany was at work in those birds. Interested in reading what others have seen and thiought.
 

gallorojo

Songster
11 Years
Oct 15, 2009
924
76
221
Southfarthing
Well Dave you brought up the obvious problem which is the male hackle color. That always has concerned me as well. In a standard description female, I think the above genotype describes them well. I would tend to think that if you melanize the males, and add mahogany, you would get the solid dark hackle color. That makes sense but I am not convinced its true. So far to me the Reeder description makes the most sense, so for now let's say it's my working theory. Dave, maybe you could also shed some light on the Castagnetti birds. I know the birds Mr Zook keeps are heavily influenced by Castagnetti blood at this point. This year he had some partridge type pullets, very dark even color, not at all wheaten, appear out of his wheaten birds. I assume this is the Castagnetti influence resurfacing. The males from this line currently have the correct bright bright hackle. What did the original Castagnetti males look like in terms of hackle color? The bright color there would seem to indicate no mahogany, unless you need something else to darken the hackle in addition to Mh? The one thing that really does indicate the presence of Mh is the dark red shoulders in the males of the silver and golden wheatens. I think a silver male with red shoulders is carrying autosomal red and or mahogany or both. All my silver or golden birds have had very dark shoulders, but , I know both Saladin and Zook have produced silvers with light shoulders, so it can be done. I guess someone more knowledgeable than myself needs to answer whether mahogany always darkens the hackle. The possibility does exist that the standard description describes two separate genotypes, a different one for each sex. Which is the case in other breeds, hence double mating schemes, cockerel lines, all that good stuff. If the sexes are in fact two separate genotypes, it could explain a lot. If the male / female lines got muddled up over the years it would explains some of the variations in color we see.
 

saladin

Songster
10 Years
Mar 30, 2009
2,831
148
221
the South
It depends on what you mean by "deep red" and in which sex.

I prefer hens that are 'burnt brick red.' (I use different descriptors than the Standard because most folks don't seem to know what 'cinnamon' actually looks like: non--Cubalaya people that is. LOL)

As Dave said, the hackles of the males are to be flashy.... to say the least.
 

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