BBS breeding and dilute / white splash

[2ndTink]

May I bother you with another color genetics question

I have a satin cockerel who is paint split to chocolate, he has a lot of leakage but he's cute. Due to him aggravating all the other silkies I put him in one of my layer coops. I have a main question and a then the questions of what colors he could produce with the different breeds. Producing silkie mixes isn't my goal, but I'm darn curious now what they'd look like and I'd rather ask than test hatch mixes at this point

I've read that with chocolate it only take one copy of the gene for females, at least with silkies. Main question: crossing him with non-silkie breeds, is a chocolate pullet a possibility?

Second question set, he's in with RIR, BR, BA, and EEs (1 pure white, two white with some rusty washed feathers, and one blue with rusty washed feathers) I'm sure the EE crosses would be a complete crap shoot, but any thoughts on what colors would happened with the others?

My rudimentary understanding is that paint is 1 copy of dominant white, so about half the chicks no matter the breed should come out paint? The other half, whatever color the hen passed on would hide the chocolate gene he could pass on, right? So I'd end up with 50% paint and 50% looking like the hens, except for the EEs which could turn out looking however they wish?

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

I've read that with chocolate it only take one copy of the gene for females, at least with silkies. Main question: crossing him with non-silkie breeds, is a chocolate pullet a possibility?

If he's split to chocolate, then about half of his daughters will inherit the gene and thus express it. However, they may also inherit other genes that would hide it. Dominant white from the Paint father would hide most of the chocolate color, for example, and about half of his offspring should inherit that from him, so roughly half of the pullets that inherit chocolate will also inherit that.

Second question set, he's in with RIR, BR, BA, and EEs (1 pure white, two white with some rusty washed feathers, and one blue with rusty washed feathers) I'm sure the EE crosses would be a complete crap shoot, but any thoughts on what colors would happened with the others?

Yeah, the Easter-eggers are probably a crap shoot. If you post pictures of them, we might be able to make some educated guesses, but since Easter-eggers very often have many heterozygous genes and sometimes even recessive genes, it's hard to say for certain on them.

I'm guessing on the acronyms for breeds, correct me if I'm wrong on any!

With the Rhode Island Reds, male offspring will be 50% black and 50% paint, both likely with heavy color leakage. In the female offspring, you'd get about 25% black, 25% chocolate, 25% paint, and 25% chocolate paint, all also with heavy color leakage. The color of said leakage depends on the genes the father has at the s-locus. What color is his leakage?

With the Barred Rocks, the male offspring should be 50% dark barred and 50% paint with barring. The female offspring, again, are 25% black, 25% chocolate, 25% paint, and 25% chocolate paint. Since Barred Rocks are extended black based, they should have significantly less color leakage than the RIR mixes, but the color if said leakage will also depend on what the father has there.

Black Australorps should produce 50% black and 50% paint in the male offspring, and 25% black, 25% chocolate, 25% paint, and 25% chocolate paint female offspring. Like the BRs, I'd expect less color leakage and again the color of it will depend on the father's leakage color.

In all cases, the male offspring will carry chocolate, but there won't be any way to distinguish the carriers from the non-carriers short of test-crossing them, unfortunately.

Traits beyond plumage coloring also depend on what traits the father has. Silkied feathering is recessive, so none of his offspring with these hens should be silkied, but all will carry the gene. If the father is bearded, either about half or all of his offspring will be bearded, depending on how many copies of the gene he has. Most likely all offspring will have feathered feet and an extra toe on one or both feet. If the father has a large crest, the offspring likely all will have a crest as well. With the BR and RIR hens, the male offspring should have pale skin and shanks, whereas the female offspring should have dark skin and shanks. Any of them that inherited dominant white may end up being paler, especially at hatch, and darken a bit later, especially their shanks. With the Australorp and Easter-eggers, assuming they have slate or greenish legs, all offspring should have dark shanks and skin, though again might be paler especially at hatch if they inherited dominant white. And with any of the single-combed females, you should get offspring with combs that look like somewhere in between the walnut comb of a Silkie and a rose comb, whereas if the EEs have pea combs then the offspring should just have walnut combs just like a Silkie's comb. I think that covers just about everything?

My rudimentary understanding is that paint is 1 copy of dominant white, so about half the chicks no matter the breed should come out paint?

Correct. Likely leaky, however, and not a clean paint color, especially with the RIR hens.

The other half, whatever color the hen passed on would hide the chocolate gene he could pass on, right? So I'd end up with 50% paint and 50% looking like the hens, except for the EEs which could turn out looking however they wish?

Kind of correct. Chocolate is a dilution of black, so impacts anywhere where black pigment would be in the feathering. Male offspring will hide chocolate because it's a recessive gene. Female offspring will not hide it because it's a sexlinked gene, so part of your female offspring should have chocolate features in their plumage where others would have black coloring.


Let me know if I overlooked any questions or anything, I was trying to reply quick before going out to close coops for the night!

 

[NatJ]

Let me know if I overlooked any questions or anything, I was trying to reply quick before going out to close coops for the night!

I saw a few points, mostly relating to whether the male is homozygous (pure, breeds true) for various Silkie traits.

I have a satin cockerel who is paint split to chocolate, he has a lot of leakage but he's cute.

Sometimes people say "Satin" to mean a bird that has normal feathering but breeds true for all other Silkie traits. Sometimes people say "Satin" to mean any Silkie-mix that has normal feathers and looks vaguely like a Silkie. I'm not sure which kind of "Satin" this one is.

Traits beyond plumage coloring also depend on what traits the father has. Silkied feathering is recessive, so none of his offspring with these hens should be silkied, but all will carry the gene.

I agree that he will not produce any chicks with silkie feathers, when crossed to hens that are pure for not-silkied feathers.

But if he is a satin, then he has at least one gene for normal feathers. That means some of his chicks will NOT inherit the gene for silkie feathers.

Depending on whether this satin carries the gene for silkie feathers or not, either half of his chicks or none of his chicks will carry that gene. (If one of his parents had silkie feathers, then he must carry the gene, and will give it to about half of his chicks. If both of his parents had normal feathers, he may or may not carry the gene for silkie feathers.)

With the BR and RIR hens, the male offspring should have pale skin and shanks, whereas the female offspring should have dark skin and shanks. Any of them that inherited dominant white may end up being paler, especially at hatch, and darken a bit later, especially their shanks. With the Australorp and Easter-eggers, assuming they have slate or greenish legs, all offspring should have dark shanks and skin, though again might be paler especially at hatch if they inherited dominant white. And with any of the single-combed females, you should get offspring with combs that look like somewhere in between the walnut comb of a Silkie and a rose comb, whereas if the EEs have pea combs then the offspring should just have walnut combs just like a Silkie's comb. I think that covers just about everything?

Assuming that he does have the Silkie traits of black skin and is pure for the rose & pea comb genes (=walnut comb), I agree.

But if this "Satin" male is actually a Silkie-mix, he might produce daughters as well as sons with pale skin, and he might produce chicks with other comb types (such as single comb.) It will all depend on what else is in the mix.

In all cases, the male offspring will carry chocolate, but there won't be any way to distinguish the carriers from the non-carriers short of test-crossing them, unfortunately.

If half the daughters are chocolate and half are black, then half the sons will carry chocolate and half will not. (That is considering just the chocolate gene, not addressing the Dominant White that is making half the blacks into paints and half the chocolates into chocolate paints.)

(Edited to finish typing & formatting, because it posted before I was done. Not sure what I hit on the keyboard to cause that...)

 

[2ndTink]

If he's split to chocolate, then about half of his daughters will inherit the gene and thus express it. However, they may also inherit other genes that would hide it. Dominant white from the Paint father would hide most of the chocolate color, for example, and about half of his offspring should inherit that from him, so roughly half of the pullets that inherit chocolate will also inherit that.




Yeah, the Easter-eggers are probably a crap shoot. If you post pictures of them, we might be able to make some educated guesses, but since Easter-eggers very often have many heterozygous genes and sometimes even recessive genes, it's hard to say for certain on them.

I'm guessing on the acronyms for breeds, correct me if I'm wrong on any!

With the Rhode Island Reds, male offspring will be 50% black and 50% paint, both likely with heavy color leakage. In the female offspring, you'd get about 25% black, 25% chocolate, 25% paint, and 25% chocolate paint, all also with heavy color leakage. The color of said leakage depends on the genes the father has at the s-locus. What color is his leakage?

With the Barred Rocks, the male offspring should be 50% dark barred and 50% paint with barring. The female offspring, again, are 25% black, 25% chocolate, 25% paint, and 25% chocolate paint. Since Barred Rocks are extended black based, they should have significantly less color leakage than the RIR mixes, but the color if said leakage will also depend on what the father has there.

Black Australorps should produce 50% black and 50% paint in the male offspring, and 25% black, 25% chocolate, 25% paint, and 25% chocolate paint female offspring. Like the BRs, I'd expect less color leakage and again the color of it will depend on the father's leakage color.

In all cases, the male offspring will carry chocolate, but there won't be any way to distinguish the carriers from the non-carriers short of test-crossing them, unfortunately.

Traits beyond plumage coloring also depend on what traits the father has. Silkied feathering is recessive, so none of his offspring with these hens should be silkied, but all will carry the gene. If the father is bearded, either about half or all of his offspring will be bearded, depending on how many copies of the gene he has. Most likely all offspring will have feathered feet and an extra toe on one or both feet. If the father has a large crest, the offspring likely all will have a crest as well. With the BR and RIR hens, the male offspring should have pale skin and shanks, whereas the female offspring should have dark skin and shanks. Any of them that inherited dominant white may end up being paler, especially at hatch, and darken a bit later, especially their shanks. With the Australorp and Easter-eggers, assuming they have slate or greenish legs, all offspring should have dark shanks and skin, though again might be paler especially at hatch if they inherited dominant white. And with any of the single-combed females, you should get offspring with combs that look like somewhere in between the walnut comb of a Silkie and a rose comb, whereas if the EEs have pea combs then the offspring should just have walnut combs just like a Silkie's comb. I think that covers just about everything?




Correct. Likely leaky, however, and not a clean paint color, especially with the RIR hens.




Kind of correct. Chocolate is a dilution of black, so impacts anywhere where black pigment would be in the feathering. Male offspring will hide chocolate because it's a recessive gene. Female offspring will not hide it because it's a sexlinked gene, so part of your female offspring should have chocolate features in their plumage where others would have black coloring.


Let me know if I overlooked any questions or anything, I was trying to reply quick before going out to close coops for the night!

Wow! This is awesome! The barred rock and black astraulorp sound the most interesting if I ever did want to hatch some.

I don't know exactly what the color of his leakage is, but I've heard people reference "kahki leakage" and I think that fits. I'll attach a few photos of him.

He's a satin as well, but he'd carry 1 silkie gene, I hatched him from a breeder but the rooster was a chocolate silkie and the hen was a satin paint. His comb isn't a perfect walnut comb, but I don't know if it genetically isn't a walnut comb or if it is just a low quality walnut comb? He has 5 toes on each foot and black skin.

This first photo washes him out a little, the second photo is probably the most accurate on color, it's not very red, it's more... kahki? Lol

 

[2ndTink]

I saw a few points, mostly relating to whether the male is homozygous (pure, breeds true) for various Silkie traits.



Sometimes people say "Satin" to mean a bird that has normal feathering but breeds true for all other Silkie traits. Sometimes people say "Satin" to mean any Silkie-mix that has normal feathers and looks vaguely like a Silkie. I'm not sure which kind of "Satin" this one is.



I agree that he will not produce any chicks with silkie feathers, when crossed to hens that are pure for not-silkied feathers.

But if he is a satin, then he has at least one gene for normal feathers. That means some of his chicks will NOT inherit the gene for silkie feathers.

Depending on whether this satin carries the gene for silkie feathers or not, either half of his chicks or none of his chicks will carry that gene. (If one of his parents had silkie feathers, then he must carry the gene, and will give it to about half of his chicks. If both of his parents had normal feathers, he may or may not carry the gene for silkie feathers.)


Assuming that he does have the Silkie traits of black skin and is pure for the rose & pea comb genes (=walnut comb), I agree.

But if this "Satin" male is actually a Silkie-mix, he might produce daughters as well as sons with pale skin, and he might produce chicks with other comb types (such as single comb.) It will all depend on what else is in the mix.


If half the daughters are chocolate and half are black, then half the sons will carry chocolate and half will not. (That is considering just the chocolate gene, not addressing the Dominant White that is making half the blacks into paints and half the chocolates into chocolate paints.)

(Edited to finish typing & formatting, because it posted before I was done. Not sure what I hit on the keyboard to cause that...)

I don't think I understand the paint and chocolate genes, can the rooster pass on both paint and chocolate, or both paint and black?

 

[NatJ]

I don't think I understand the paint and chocolate genes, can the rooster pass on both paint and chocolate, or both paint and black?

For the genes we have been talking about, yes.

Chocolate and Dominant White are two different genes, even though both affect black.
It is just like the crest gene is different than the gene for a 5th toe, and a rooster can give his chicks just one or the other or both or neither.

If you start with a genetically black chicken (black all over), the chocolate gene can turn all black into chocolate.

Or the Dominant White gene can turn almost all black into white, leaving just a few spots of black (so we call the chicken "paint.") But if the black was already turned into chocolate, then Dominant White still turns most of it to black white, leaving a few spots (but the spots are chocolate instead of black, so we call the chicken a chocolate paint.)

Wow! This is awesome! The barred rock and black astraulorp sound the most interesting if I ever did want to hatch some.

I don't know exactly what the color of his leakage is, but I've heard people reference "kahki leakage" and I think that fits. I'll attach a few photos of him.

He's a satin as well, but he'd carry 1 silkie gene, I hatched him from a breeder but the rooster was a chocolate silkie and the hen was a satin paint. His comb isn't a perfect walnut comb, but I don't know if it genetically isn't a walnut comb or if it is just a low quality walnut comb? He has 5 toes on each foot and black skin.

This first photo washes him out a little, the second photo is probably the most accurate on color, it's not very red, it's more... kahki? Lol
View attachment 3725494
View attachment 3725495
View attachment 3725496

@pipdzipdnreadytogo looking at the photos, I'm not sure what to think about the color of that rooster. I would have expected him to look like a typical paint (white with black bits), carrying the sex-linked chocolate gene. Either he's got quite a lot of gold leakage (so why does it look that color? I would expect it to be more yellow/gold/red.) or else he has something different going on genetically. Could he have the khaki/dun gene instead? Sometimes those birds are called chocolate. But I don't have much experience recognizing them.

@2ndTink There is another gene that can cause a color called "chocolate," but it would have different inheritance, and the previous predictions would be wrong. [Edit to add: @pipdzipdnreadytogo confirms that your cockerel does not have that other gene, so the already-made predictions should be correct.]

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

I saw a few points, mostly relating to whether the male is homozygous (pure, breeds true) for various Silkie traits.



Sometimes people say "Satin" to mean a bird that has normal feathering but breeds true for all other Silkie traits. Sometimes people say "Satin" to mean any Silkie-mix that has normal feathers and looks vaguely like a Silkie. I'm not sure which kind of "Satin" this one is.



I agree that he will not produce any chicks with silkie feathers, when crossed to hens that are pure for not-silkied feathers.

But if he is a satin, then he has at least one gene for normal feathers. That means some of his chicks will NOT inherit the gene for silkie feathers.

Depending on whether this satin carries the gene for silkie feathers or not, either half of his chicks or none of his chicks will carry that gene. (If one of his parents had silkie feathers, then he must carry the gene, and will give it to about half of his chicks. If both of his parents had normal feathers, he may or may not carry the gene for silkie feathers.)


Assuming that he does have the Silkie traits of black skin and is pure for the rose & pea comb genes (=walnut comb), I agree.

But if this "Satin" male is actually a Silkie-mix, he might produce daughters as well as sons with pale skin, and he might produce chicks with other comb types (such as single comb.) It will all depend on what else is in the mix.

You're absolutely correct, I totally skimmed over the fact that he's a Satin, not a Silkie.

(Facepalm at myself, not at you of course!)

If half the daughters are chocolate and half are black, then half the sons will carry chocolate and half will not. (That is considering just the chocolate gene, not addressing the Dominant White that is making half the blacks into paints and half the chocolates into chocolate paints.)

(Edited to finish typing & formatting, because it posted before I was done. Not sure what I hit on the keyboard to cause that...)

That was meant to say 'some of the male offspring', not just 'the male offspring', whoops. Yes, only about half of the male offspring inherit the chocolate gene just as with the female offspring.

Thank you for the corrections as always! Guess I should have just gone out to close coops and let you or someone else respond.

Wow! This is awesome! The barred rock and black astraulorp sound the most interesting if I ever did want to hatch some.

I don't know exactly what the color of his leakage is, but I've heard people reference "kahki leakage" and I think that fits. I'll attach a few photos of him.

He's a satin as well, but he'd carry 1 silkie gene, I hatched him from a breeder but the rooster was a chocolate silkie and the hen was a satin paint. His comb isn't a perfect walnut comb, but I don't know if it genetically isn't a walnut comb or if it is just a low quality walnut comb? He has 5 toes on each foot and black skin.

This first photo washes him out a little, the second photo is probably the most accurate on color, it's not very red, it's more... kahki? Lol
View attachment 3725494
View attachment 3725495
View attachment 3725496

Ah, I've read about this because my Paint Silkie male has it as well! Essentially, he has a gene or genes that causes him not to block black pigment fully to all of his feathers despite that he has a copy of dominant white that should only let flecks through, and so his feathering gets what essentially is a fine 'misting' of black pigment throughout that gives him this sort of dirty-looking coloring. I have heard via reading info from Paint Silkie breeders that it shows up like this due to being heterozygous or homozygous for gold, either S/s+ or s+/s+, but do not have any 100% confirmation of that beyond what those breeders have said. Based on the amount of leakage, what I understood of it is that he is most likely homozygous gold, s+/s+. So if that is the case, then his offspring will likely have reddish or gold color leakage, and very likely his paint offspring will have this sort of dirty tinge to their plumage as well.

His comb looks to me like he's heterozygous for both comb genes, R/r+ P/p+; it's somewhat in between the shape of a rose comb and a pea comb, much like the combs the birds I got from crossing a pure Silkie to a Cochin bantam had. If that is the case, then you should get approximately equal numbers of pea, rose, walnut, and single comb offspring with the single combed hens, and either half pea combed and half walnut combed from the pea combed hens if they are homozygous pea comb, or (if I've done my math correctly) about 37.5% pea, 37.5% walnut, 12.5% rose, and 12.5% single if they are heterozygous pea comb.

@pipdzipdnreadytogo looking at the photos, I'm not sure what to think about the color of that rooster. I would have expected him to look like a typical paint (white with black bits), carrying the sex-linked chocolate gene. Either he's got quite a lot of gold leakage (so why does it look that color? I would expect it to be more yellow/gold/red.) or else he has something different going on genetically. Could he have the khaki/dun gene instead? Sometimes those birds are called chocolate. But I don't have much experience recognizing them.

@2ndTink There is another gene that can cause a color called "chocolate," but it would have different inheritance, and the previous predictions would be wrong.

See above. We can be pretty confident he's not I^D dun because of the black 'paint flecks' showing through in his plumage as seen in the first picture, and that the 'dun-like' coloring is not uniform all over, but instead kind of concentrated to the cape, saddle, and chest like color leakage often is.

 

[NatJ]

Thank you for the corrections as always! Guess I should have just gone out to close coops and let you or someone else respond.

I appreciated that you typed the whole long thing, instead of me doing it

And I'm happy to see more and more people with enough knowledge to answer these kind of questions, rather than just a few (who might be busy on a given day, or just not feel like answering at a particular time. I've noticed that with myself, and I think I also see it with some of the other people who are good at genetics.)

Ah, I've read about this because my Paint Silkie male has it as well! Essentially, he has a gene or genes that causes him not to block black pigment fully to all of his feathers despite that he has a copy of dominant white that should only let flecks through, and so his feathering gets what essentially is a fine 'misting' of black pigment throughout that gives him this sort of dirty-looking coloring. I have heard via reading info from Paint Silkie breeders that it shows up like this due to being heterozygous or homozygous for gold, either S/s+ or s+/s+, but do not have any 100% confirmation of that beyond what those breeders have said. Based on the amount of leakage, what I understood of it is that he is most likely homozygous gold, s+/s+. So if that is the case, then his offspring will likely have reddish or gold color leakage, and very likely his paint offspring will have this sort of dirty tinge to their plumage as well.

See above. We can be pretty confident he's not I^D dun because of the black 'paint flecks' showing through in his plumage as seen in the first picture, and that the 'dun-like' coloring is not uniform all over, but instead kind of concentrated to the cape, saddle, and chest like color leakage often is.

Good to know! I wasn't confident about what I was seeing there, so I'm glad it's an area that you know better than me. (My knowledge is a bit patchy, since I have picked it up in pieces as different things caught my attention.)

His comb looks to me like he's heterozygous for both comb genes, R/r+ P/p+; it's somewhat in between the shape of a rose comb and a pea comb, much like the combs the birds I got from crossing a pure Silkie to a Cochin bantam had. If that is the case, then you should get approximately equal numbers of pea, rose, walnut, and single comb offspring with the single combed hens, and either half pea combed and half walnut combed from the pea combed hens if they are homozygous pea comb, or (if I've done my math correctly) about 37.5% pea, 37.5% walnut, 12.5% rose, and 12.5% single if they are heterozygous pea comb.

You have more experience than me in identify walnut-mix combs.
Assuming you are correct about what comb genes he has, I agree with your predictions and I think you did do the math correctly.

You are not allowing for combs looking different if they have two copies of the pea comb gene (homozygous) vs. one copy (heterozygous). Two copies will be present in some of the "pea comb" and "walnut comb" chicks from mothers with pea combs. One copy will be present in some chicks from those mothers, and in all "pea comb" and "walnut comb" chicks from mothers with single combs.

Two vs. one copy of the pea comb gene can make a big difference in the appearance, or can be almost identical in appearance. I've seen examples either way, so I assume there must be some other genes that change exactly how the comb appears in heterozygotes (one copy of the pea comb gene).

 

[MysteryChicken]

My Dun Malay has black in his hackles, & saddles. Will get close ups in a bit. The pictures I have currently aren't good enough to show that.
I also did read somewhere here, that Dun does leak black sometimes.

 

[NatJ]

My Dun Malay has black in his hackles, & saddles. Will get close ups in a bit. The pictures I have currently aren't good enough to show that.

Does OP's male look dun to you? Or is he probably paint (heterozygous Dominant White) with large amounts of leakage?