Best Dog Breed to Double as Both Housepet and Chicken Guard?

[Grenadianexpat]

Professional dog trainer here. Swift, severe, certain punishment is dog abuse. Enlightened people use positive reinforcement methods to get the point across--it works better to teach a dog respect than to teach fear.

Much respect to your skill set, If you are anything like the lady that tried to help me I was just impressed how this very little person almost instantly had my girl in check. I was obviously the weak link.

However I find it very hard to have a positive response to dead or dying chicken in Sally's mouth. You have to deal with it at the exact time, as otherwise they have no idea why they are being punished.

She gets a LOT of positive actions at other times, and I know not to call her afterwards to get punishment as that would make her unsure about the come command.

But sorry dog lovers, if she does make a move, or accomplishes a kill she gets her just rewards.

On a positive note after our last kill session about 6 months ago she seems to have almost learned the lesson. Today I walked her around the chickens and while she pulled to sniff poop and scent trails she didn't make any move towards the girls... not even the little chicks. But I wouldn't trust her without me being there. She definitely has hunting traits. When loose in the bush she's off everywhere with her nose to the ground, or sniffing the air. Lizards have to be fleet of foot, and she's very fast at catching flies.

 

[Fishkeeper]

Trying to be an "alpha dog" is nonsense. Dogs aren't wolves, and wolf packs don't have that alpha-beta-omega structure that everyone thinks they do. That dynamic was based on a "study" where wolves from different packs were put in a pen and observed, and ended up more like the dynamic of a human prison than a wolf pack.
To get dogs to behave around potential prey animals, you introduce them gradually, in a way that's safe for the small animals. Through a screen door or cage, with you on the dog's side, being calm and reassuring. Reward good behavior, and you'll see more of it.
The only time you should ever be anything near harsh with a dog is if grabbing the dog is the only way to prevent serious harm to one of your other animals. Otherwise, you can end up with a dog who's afraid to be near the chickens, or who thinks "I should do this when the human isn't around" rather than "I shouldn't do this".
A dog is a creature who loves you unconditionally and is incapable of malice. The least you can do is learn training methods that don't involve abusing them into frightened compliance.

 

[Curnow]

Mine are Border Collie X Heeler (Australian Cattle Dog)
Father Border Collie was a TRUE working dog.
They have shown natural working instinct whether it is with our few head of cattle, the horses, or the chickens.

 

[PeepersMama]

I've looked at some guard dog articles, questions, and threads, but most focus on just the guarding aspect and even say guard dogs shouldn't double as housepets or get attention outside the guarding area. (which makes sense) I know, with training, many breeds can be taught to look after chickens, but finding a breed that is inclined toward it would be nice. Here's the situation...Sorry about the wall of info and I hope this is in an appropriate section.

Family member wants a new dog that will keep our very old house dog company in his remaining years and also keep them company when they are home and sleep with them at night. They think they can raise a dog, but I am 100% certain they will not, so I will be raising/training/spending time with it the majority of the time. I have owned or had experience with many breeds before, but never taught one to be near the chickens as the chickens/ducks are a very recent addition to the family.

Personally, I would like a dog that will look after my chickens while they free range during the day and keep hawks and stray predators away. As well as perhaps some unattentive neighbor's escaped dog out for a joyride... (lost some chickens to this) Though we also have a renter with a dog. So I'm not sure if keeping other dogs away from chickens without being aggressive is a thing. If it isn't, disregard. I don't need it kicking the snot out of unfamiliar dogs.

There is no need for a nighttime guard dog as their coop does just fine. And it would only be out there to watch them when I am home, so it would mostly function as a house dog. While I like the thought of a guardian dog, I would settle for a dog that could be easily taught to leave the chickens and ducks alone when it's outside with me while I'm doing chores or to play. We also have 2 ducks.
We're on about 10 acres, partially fenced off for a couple of horses. And we have a few cats that blissfully ignore the chickens.

Family member is quite picky, and wants a large or semi-large fluffy dog, but doesn't like Mastiffs or Pyrenees.

With all this in mind, I'm not sure if there is any good solution to what we should get, but there are many a dog breed out there, and I wasn't sure where else to look for advice. So thoughts are very appreciated. Thank you! And let me know if I missed anything important or if getting the best of both worlds is downright impossible. Haha.[/QUOTE

I have a great pyrenees, and let me say she has proven herself invaluable over the couple years we've had her. Not so much when she was little, but now that she's matured, there's no doubt in my mind that she'd take on anything that dared take a second glance at the chickens. A while ago she took on a coyote bigger than she was, ran it over, then cornered it in a drain pipe where Dad shot it. Never been prouder of that dog.
She lives in the house, but she knows her job and (usually) does it well. She sheds like no tomorrow, and is the slowest speed-bump ever in the hallways, but she has such an unending patience with absolutely everything. Even as a puppy, you could do whatever the heck you wanted (except knock over the baby gate) and she'd just sigh and move on. BUT she was a PAIN to train. -___- Little rebel... Gah.

If you wanted something like a pyr, with the guarding instinct/desire but without the hair and selective deafness, from what I've seen, Anatolian shepherds tend to listen a lot better, and they've got the patience and instinct of the pyrs.

If I were you, I'd probably get an australian shepherd. I LOVE aussies. Super freaking smart, obedient and loyal to the end. They can have a prey drive (heck chickens have that affect on dogs), but after a few good scoldings, they catch on really fast. My favorite aussie ever is an amazing watch/guard dog. She's very tuned in to how her owners feel about who/whatever is coming in, and reacts accordingly. Every dog is different, but that's been my experience.

 

[LinnyChx]

Our black lab was first introduced to chickens at age 7 and he is a fabulous watch dog. When my girls free range, NOTHING gets anywhere near us. I can be out by myself with my kitties and all the chickens out and not worry one bit about stray dogs, hawks etc because of my good boy.

Some of the flock like to follow behind him, but sometimes the queen bee lets him know she's the top of the pecking order and he's ok with that too. He really is the world's best dog. I have no idea why anyone would want to give him up but I'm sure glad they did cause HE'S MINE NOW!

I think it's less important what breed you have and more important that you have a good connection with your pooch. Yes some breeds have better instincts for certain work, but a rescued dog knows when he's been saved.

Best of luck!

P.S. I didn't really say but my Lab is absolutely a doted on pet. He lives indoors, has his own bed in the master suite. He gets fed a hot breakfast every morning. Pretty darn spoiled and totally worth it.

 

[Roscoe2k2]

x2 with vanillachai

If you're looking for advice on training, here's some.

There's really only one difference between training a dog not to rummage in the garbage and not to hurt chickens. You can gradually train your dog to stay out of the garbage, and rely on age to mellow him a bit.

You cannot gradually train him to not hurt the hens. Remember that there are some things you simply will not tolerate and do not tolerate them. Make punishment swift, severe, and certain--and make it come from a person the dog respects.

If this is redundant, sorry. But I hope it helps.

I agree with you
.my dogs know who runs the show here...they DO know when they mess up and they Don't Do it again.

 

[Lady of McCamley]

Much respect to your skill set, If you are anything like the lady that tried to help me I was just impressed how this very little person almost instantly had my girl in check. I was obviously the weak link.

However I find it very hard to have a positive response to dead or dying chicken in Sally's mouth. You have to deal with it at the exact time, as otherwise they have no idea why they are being punished.

She gets a LOT of positive actions at other times, and I know not to call her afterwards to get punishment as that would make her unsure about the come command.

But sorry dog lovers, if she does make a move, or accomplishes a kill she gets her just rewards.

On a positive note after our last kill session about 6 months ago she seems to have almost learned the lesson. Today I walked her around the chickens and while she pulled to sniff poop and scent trails she didn't make any move towards the girls... not even the little chicks. But I wouldn't trust her without me being there. She definitely has hunting traits. When loose in the bush she's off everywhere with her nose to the ground, or sniffing the air. Lizards have to be fleet of foot, and she's very fast at catching flies.

I believe you misunderstood what is meant in the dog training world as positive reinforcement (and I'm simplifying terms here rather than using technical dog training terms which can be a bit confusing). Positive reinforcement is giving a pleasurable consequence (food or praise) as a response to a behavior you desire to reinforce....not giving positive response to bad behavior.

If Sally has gotten a chicken, you have to protect the chicken and Sally needs to be checked in the middle of her negative behavior. That typically is no longer training but behavior checking....ie "punishment."

If a dog gets into a bad situation with a chicken, generally that means the owner has not trained in an efficient manner...the owner has let a dog around chickens that is not trustworthy and been forced into a negative role. This generally produces poor results as you tend to go from one crisis to the next with stern behavior checks, or punishments. That is simply teaching the dog to avoid you, or get sneaky, or become anxious, not internalize desired behaviors. Reinforcing desired behaviors, in the long term, is much, much more effective than punishing the bad behavior of the moment.

What is meant is to have Sally on a leash then reward her with food treats as she walks by the chickens and ignores them. It is best to first teach the "Leave It" command on inanimate objects (food treats on the floor). You let the dog look at the treat, tell it to "Leave It" then watch for reaction. Of course the dog will go for it. I prefer the negative/positive approach by giving a very quick leash snap. So quick the dog doesn't even know you administered it (using a chain training collar placed so it is in relax position until pulled down...pull down and up in a quick snap). When they look at you in surprise, as if they just got bit (which honestly many think the sky god bit them), you are all smiles and kindness giving praise and a food reward. Repeat until the animal shies away from the treat and looks at you first. You then "jackpot" reward the animal. Many animals associate the location of the treat itself with the "snap from the sky god" and will avoid that area when you come back to approach again.

After a few initial negative reinforcements (always very quick snaps with the "leash monster" that is so quick the dog isn't sure where it came from) and praise and food when the dog looks away and back to you, most dogs will hear the "Leave It" and attach that command to leave whatever I'm looking at and look at my owner.

Soft dogs, as many of the herding collie types are, respond from voice alone. A strong "Ack. Leave It." is often enough to discourage them from the object with a look to you for reassurance. Praise and food treat. Many soft, collie types, get it the first time. Almost all get it after the second or third. Soon you simply have to say "Leave It" and the dog comes to you for food treat. Over harshness with a collie herder can sour the dog very quickly and make it insecure, fearful, and unresponsive.

Only after much practice and training (both on leash and drag line) in calm, non-distracting environments, can you advance to more distracting stimuli such as chickens.

By the time you get to the chickens, you should have such trust and obedience built up that the leash is a safety measure rather than a necessity...but USE it. The dog will naturally be excited and distracted. Walk away until it calms down. Depending upon the breed and personality, you may have to "leash snap" on the walk by attempt if they ignore the "Leave It." Sensitive dogs will respond to the "Leave It" even in the midst of the chickens. Watch your dog and his/her emotions. If you sense escalating tension and excitement (watch the ears and tail), you will tell them "Leave It" and walk away. Reward with food treats as they respond to you. Continue to desensitize them to the chickens and re-sensitize them to you and those wonderful food rewards and praise.

The error is rushing a dog to be around the chickens before you have built trust and obedience with positive reinforcement such that you have to resort to negative reinforcement, even negative behavior checks as in stern actions (scruff shake, body pull off, dragging away), because they have a chicken in their grasp. The situation has gotten out of control. You are no longer training, you are merely choas managing.

Another error is being inconsistent with your commands and training. Both will produce dogs that are inconsistent and unhappy.

My experiences.
LofMc

 

[Grenadianexpat]

Trying to be an "alpha dog" is nonsense. Dogs aren't wolves, and wolf packs don't have that alpha-beta-omega structure that everyone thinks they do. That dynamic was based on a "study" where wolves from different packs were put in a pen and observed, and ended up more like the dynamic of a human prison than a wolf pack.
To get dogs to behave around potential prey animals, you introduce them gradually, in a way that's safe for the small animals. Through a screen door or cage, with you on the dog's side, being calm and reassuring. Reward good behavior, and you'll see more of it.
The only time you should ever be anything near harsh with a dog is if grabbing the dog is the only way to prevent serious harm to one of your other animals. Otherwise, you can end up with a dog who's afraid to be near the chickens, or who thinks "I should do this when the human isn't around" rather than "I shouldn't do this".
A dog is a creature who loves you unconditionally and is incapable of malice. The least you can do is learn training methods that don't involve abusing them into frightened compliance.

Not wishing to get into a back and forth, but while I agree with TRYING to use use positive reinforcement, it is a guard dog, not a pet, although it is

I believe you misunderstood what is meant in the dog training world as positive reinforcement (and I'm simplifying terms here rather than using technical dog training terms which can be a bit confusing). Positive reinforcement is giving a pleasurable consequence (food or praise) as a response to a behavior you desire to reinforce....not giving positive response to bad behavior.

If Sally has gotten a chicken, you have to protect the chicken and Sally needs to be checked in the middle of her negative behavior. That typically is no longer training but behavior checking....ie "punishment."

If a dog gets into a bad situation with a chicken, generally that means the owner has not trained in an efficient manner...the owner has let a dog around chickens that is not trustworthy and been forced into a negative role. This generally produces poor results as you tend to go from one crisis to the next with stern behavior checks, or punishments. That is simply teaching the dog to avoid you, or get sneaky, or become anxious, not internalize desired behaviors. Reinforcing desired behaviors, in the long term, is much, much more effective than punishing the bad behavior of the moment.

What is meant is to have Sally on a leash then reward her with food treats as she walks by the chickens and ignores them. It is best to first teach the "Leave It" command on inanimate objects (food treats on the floor). You let the dog look at the treat, tell it to "Leave It" then watch for reaction. Of course the dog will go for it. I prefer the negative/positive approach by giving a very quick leash snap. So quick the dog doesn't even know you administered it (using a chain training collar placed so it is in relax position until pulled down...pull down and up in a quick snap). When they look at you in surprise, as if they just got bit (which honestly many think the sky god bit them), you are all smiles and kindness giving praise and a food reward. Repeat until the animal shies away from the treat and looks at you first. You then "jackpot" reward the animal. Many animals associate the location of the treat itself with the "snap from the sky god" and will avoid that area when you come back to approach again.

After a few initial negative reinforcements (always very quick snaps with the "leash monster" that is so quick the dog isn't sure where it came from) and praise and food when the dog looks away and back to you, most dogs will hear the "Leave It" and attach that command to leave whatever I'm looking at and look at my owner.

Soft dogs, as many of the herding collie types are, respond from voice alone. A strong "Ack. Leave It." is often enough to discourage them from the object with a look to you for reassurance. Praise and food treat. Many soft, collie types, get it the first time. Almost all get it after the second or third. Soon you simply have to say "Leave It" and the dog comes to you for food treat. Over harshness with a collie herder can sour the dog very quickly and make it insecure, fearful, and unresponsive.

Only after much practice and training (both on leash and drag line) in calm, non-distracting environments, can you advance to more distracting stimuli such as chickens.

By the time you get to the chickens, you should have such trust and obedience built up that the leash is a safety measure rather than a necessity...but USE it. The dog will naturally be excited and distracted. Walk away until it calms down. Depending upon the breed and personality, you may have to "leash snap" on the walk by attempt if they ignore the "Leave It." Sensitive dogs will respond to the "Leave It" even in the midst of the chickens. Watch your dog and his/her emotions. If you sense escalating tension and excitement (watch the ears and tail), you will tell them "Leave It" and walk away. Reward with food treats as they respond to you. Continue to desensitize them to the chickens and re-sensitize them to you and those wonderful food rewards and praise.

The error is rushing a dog to be around the chickens before you have built trust and obedience with positive reinforcement such that you have to resort to negative reinforcement, even negative behavior checks as in stern actions (scruff shake, body pull off, dragging away), because they have a chicken in their grasp. The situation has gotten out of control. You are no longer training, you are merely choas managing.

Another error is being inconsistent with your commands and training. Both will produce dogs that are inconsistent and unhappy.

My experiences.
LofMc

Thank you for your experiences, I should say that response was an accident I didn't realise had happened. I thought better of it and I thought I had cancelled the reply. I had intended to reply differently later, or not at all... I have responded to so many posts on so many sites recently I am losing track.
Yes, as I said I am the weakest link, WE are getting better but not as efficiently as I am sure you would. I would love to let her have the run of the land, but she gets up and down the stairs, on the veranda and enough space for toiletries... not ideal as it is closer to the house than our noses would like... But age is bringing reason, and she is starting to calm a little, but she is VERY quick to become exited, and instantly she is exited there is no off switch without a firm yank on her tie out leash and the standard SIT command. Even in non chicken situations. She just goes deaf.

 

[Scott214]

I have the great Pyrenees mixed with a golden retriever and is the perfect dog. The bird hunting is toned down due to the guardian in the Pyrenees half. He's so beautiful and he doesn't mess with the birds he doesn't even give them a notice but if there is a stranger or another dog he becomes super protective for the family and the chickens but not to the point of attacking. His bark is deep and strong so it does the job. Also he's very smart and will do anything for a treat and can pick up on new things in a very short amount of training. He's the best house dog he is a little big but thinks hes a lap dog. He is very energetic but it has been slowing down with age. I can post a picture when I get home. I hope this helps with your search. Any questions just let me know! I really do praise this dog as outstanding and just the best in my experiences.

 

[Cluckies]

I have an Australian Shepherd, he does really well with the chickens, he'll lay by the coop and/or by the chickens, or just wander the yard looking for intruders. He has never went after a chicken

However, when he was young, he always had to be where ever I was. now he will stay outside by himself. We do have a fenced in yard. an Australian Shepherd is a herding dog, so some have a tendency to chase cars, so be careful of that, training...