Here you go:
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=20058
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=20058
Betta Fish Dying
- Thread starter rodriguezpoultry
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #22
Ah...the temperature.
The temperature in our apartment is around 70*, often dipping into the low 60s depending on the temperature outside. We refuse to turn on the heater just yet.
That's probably adding to the issue. I need to get something that can do well in a cooler environment.
The temperature in our apartment is around 70*, often dipping into the low 60s depending on the temperature outside. We refuse to turn on the heater just yet.
That's probably adding to the issue. I need to get something that can do well in a cooler environment.
- Apr 15, 2009
- 6,770
- 238
- 281
I am on my third Betta, but I think I've worked out what I did wrong with the first two, so I'll share my observations. I knew nothing about Bettas when Nana brought one to our house as a gift for my daughter. I killed that one in 2 days by over filling the water and not leaving breathing space at the top. (I was supposed to know that you can drown a fish?) Daughter was devastated so I had to go to Petco and purchase a new one. That one lasted quite a while. I religiously cleaned the bowl each week and used water conditioner and fed him everyday. Until he died from over feeding. (Only feed them every 3-5 days? Really?) Daughter very sad and off to Petco we go again for number three. This fish has had the least amount of care of all and has lasted the longest. He gets monthly water changes with the conditioner added to the water and only gets fed about every third day. This guy is much more active than the other two. I use regular untreated well water and add a complete water conditioner. I clean his tank, gravel and decorations with hot water and a clean cloth, but never use soaps or detergents which can leave residues behind. He doesn't have a filter and doesn't seem to need one as his water stays crystal clear. It seems to be working because as I said this one seems to have some staying power.
After killing two Bettas I got all the info I could find on these fish. In nature they basically live their life out in mud puddles where the water quality is terrible, oxygenation is poor, and food is often sporadic or unavailable. I think I killed my second one from too much care, so I care for the current fish only as needed and try not to fuss over him too much.
Good luck. Hope this helped.
After killing two Bettas I got all the info I could find on these fish. In nature they basically live their life out in mud puddles where the water quality is terrible, oxygenation is poor, and food is often sporadic or unavailable. I think I killed my second one from too much care, so I care for the current fish only as needed and try not to fuss over him too much.
Good luck. Hope this helped.
Cycling: http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-cycling.html
A black moor or "tiny" fish do grow up. I had a few who as adults were about 3-4 inches in body alone. Stick with a beta if you want it in a vase.
A black moor or "tiny" fish do grow up. I had a few who as adults were about 3-4 inches in body alone. Stick with a beta if you want it in a vase.
What are you feeding him, how much, and how often? Over feeding is a very common problem that causes fish to die fairly quickly.
I would not put goldfish into a vase set up like that. Most all goldfish *should* grow large. If they do not grow at all, they are not receiving proper care. A vase like that would build up way too much ammonia and you will be cleaning it every other day. I had to temporarily keep four little feeder fish in a five gallon without filtration until I could bring them home to put in a pond. I got to the point where I had to clean it every day, and that was a tank that had been cycled before.
It could just be two fluke bettas that died on you, but I would also recommend putting something behind the vase to let the fish relax so he doesn't over exert himself trying to fight with the reflection. Its perfectly fine exercise to let him fight with the mirror for a half hour or so a day, but any more than that will stress him out.
Make sure when you clean out the vase you do not use bleach or soap. I would say get another betta and see how that one does. If it dies quickly, perhaps you might want to consider getting a bigger set up with filtration like a 1, 2.5 or 5 gallon set up. They are relatively inexpensive. Although, there are other fish that might do well in a vase. I think two types are ghost shrimp and white clouds.
I would not put goldfish into a vase set up like that. Most all goldfish *should* grow large. If they do not grow at all, they are not receiving proper care. A vase like that would build up way too much ammonia and you will be cleaning it every other day. I had to temporarily keep four little feeder fish in a five gallon without filtration until I could bring them home to put in a pond. I got to the point where I had to clean it every day, and that was a tank that had been cycled before.
It could just be two fluke bettas that died on you, but I would also recommend putting something behind the vase to let the fish relax so he doesn't over exert himself trying to fight with the reflection. Its perfectly fine exercise to let him fight with the mirror for a half hour or so a day, but any more than that will stress him out.
Make sure when you clean out the vase you do not use bleach or soap. I would say get another betta and see how that one does. If it dies quickly, perhaps you might want to consider getting a bigger set up with filtration like a 1, 2.5 or 5 gallon set up. They are relatively inexpensive. Although, there are other fish that might do well in a vase. I think two types are ghost shrimp and white clouds.
Okay, a few things may be going on here.
In both scenarios you said they were fine for a few days and displaying like crazy in the mirror. Betta are extremely territorial. Another male triggers a kill or be killed response. The little fellows have been spending ALL of their energy trying everything they can to scare away the threatening male that is looking just as dangerous as he is, but its not working. I liken this to a stranger hanging out in your kitchen with a loaded gun aimed at you and you can escape. The harder you try to scare him away the more violent he gets. Do you see where I'm going? Those stressed out fish are wearing them selves out to the point of not being able to handle illness.
Where is the illness coming from? Simply from being a small environment the water chemistry is vastly more unstable. I'm not sure if you've been trying to feed them, but chances are the food is mostly going uneaten. Even if they do eat it might not be getting digested. Fish physiology is different than peoples. Fish have the ability to shut down parts of their systems in times of emergency survival. Digestion is one of them. Kill or be killed is one of those times.
In addition to the stress, unstable water chemistry and suppressed immune system is the fact that fish are poikilothermic, which means they are cold blooded. Their body slows with the cooling of the water they are in. A vase is not heated. Bathrooms usually aren't heated. Worse yet is the dramatic temperature swings that happen. Betta are more tolerant than most fish of temperature swings because of where they evolved, but a bathroom is too much. They also prefer warmer water all of the time, like in the low to mid 80's. I've had Bettas live 7 and 8 years.
Someone mentioned that Bettas breath atmospheric air. That's true. Do they have to have access to the surface? Its a good idea. They only breath atmospheric air when the oxygen content of the water is too low. Unless you are willing to get an oxygen meter and monitor the water several times a day, then it make more sense to just allow them access and let them deal with it themselves.
I've also had Betta imported from Thailand. Are they any healthier than Walmart or Petco's Bettas? Not necessarily. When it comes to the Walmarts and Petcos of the world fish generally are likely to have more health issues than if you buy fish directly from a breeder. I'm not dissing those stores. They just have fish coming from a multitude of locations and aren't setup to be able to quarantine fish. Betta are the one type of fish that doesn't always fall under that health risk issue that the other fish do. The reason is they are shipped in water and generally are kept in it so there isn't a disease cross contamination issue. You're likely going to get very healthy Bettas if you get them in their little cups (which aren't designed to be their homes) when they first arrive at those fish and pet stores. After the Bettas have been hanging out in those cups for a few days, next to other Betta cups, they are going to be subjected to the same kill or be killed stress as those in the vase in the bathroom.
Spring water. You don't have to dechlorinate it. There's no chlorine in bottled water. Tap water is actually healthier once you've neutralized the chlorine and chlorimines. Regular old tap water has minerals in it that fish need to produce healthy bones and tissue.
You're right about the dishwasher idea. You don't need to. A common mistake many people make is keeping fish's tanks (or vases) too clean. There are beneficial bacteria that colonize all of the surfaces that are under water. Those bacteria clean the water. Occasionally we need to go in and thin the bacteria out or it actually will start over populating itself and start killing itself off, which pollutes the water.
Oh! You mentioned burrowing in the roots of the bamboo. That's not burrowing, that's hiding from that killer Betta in the mirror.
Ummm, about the tiny fancy goldfish. There's no such thing. Black moors and other small goldfish you get are just young. They normally grow to at least 5" long. Ones that don't have stunted growth because of small environments and often in conjunction with poor water quality. Goldfish would be able to handle the temp in the bathroom and not get stressed out by the mirror, but a vase is just massively too small.
If you want something that will work in the bathroom in a vase with a live plant, I recommend getting some freshwater shrimp. Red cherry shrimp, to be exact. You can house 4-6 in one of those vases. They don't mind it being unheated and could care less about the mirror. You won't find them at Walmart and its quite doubtful that Petco will carry them. If you find an aquarium club in your area your best bet is getting some from a local hobbiest. Stores that sell only fish are likely to have some. Another beginner freshwater shrimp option is ghost shrimp. They are cheap because they are usually sold as live fish food. They are a little bigger and may not handle the transition as well as getting some juvenile RCS (Red Cherry Shrimp). I think shrimp are just as fun to watch as fish. They eat fish food so you don't even need to get anything fancy to feed them. Change about 1/8 of the volume of water a week and you're good to go.
Sorry the Betta didn't work out. It would have looked cool.
Good luck!
In both scenarios you said they were fine for a few days and displaying like crazy in the mirror. Betta are extremely territorial. Another male triggers a kill or be killed response. The little fellows have been spending ALL of their energy trying everything they can to scare away the threatening male that is looking just as dangerous as he is, but its not working. I liken this to a stranger hanging out in your kitchen with a loaded gun aimed at you and you can escape. The harder you try to scare him away the more violent he gets. Do you see where I'm going? Those stressed out fish are wearing them selves out to the point of not being able to handle illness.
Where is the illness coming from? Simply from being a small environment the water chemistry is vastly more unstable. I'm not sure if you've been trying to feed them, but chances are the food is mostly going uneaten. Even if they do eat it might not be getting digested. Fish physiology is different than peoples. Fish have the ability to shut down parts of their systems in times of emergency survival. Digestion is one of them. Kill or be killed is one of those times.
In addition to the stress, unstable water chemistry and suppressed immune system is the fact that fish are poikilothermic, which means they are cold blooded. Their body slows with the cooling of the water they are in. A vase is not heated. Bathrooms usually aren't heated. Worse yet is the dramatic temperature swings that happen. Betta are more tolerant than most fish of temperature swings because of where they evolved, but a bathroom is too much. They also prefer warmer water all of the time, like in the low to mid 80's. I've had Bettas live 7 and 8 years.
Someone mentioned that Bettas breath atmospheric air. That's true. Do they have to have access to the surface? Its a good idea. They only breath atmospheric air when the oxygen content of the water is too low. Unless you are willing to get an oxygen meter and monitor the water several times a day, then it make more sense to just allow them access and let them deal with it themselves.
I've also had Betta imported from Thailand. Are they any healthier than Walmart or Petco's Bettas? Not necessarily. When it comes to the Walmarts and Petcos of the world fish generally are likely to have more health issues than if you buy fish directly from a breeder. I'm not dissing those stores. They just have fish coming from a multitude of locations and aren't setup to be able to quarantine fish. Betta are the one type of fish that doesn't always fall under that health risk issue that the other fish do. The reason is they are shipped in water and generally are kept in it so there isn't a disease cross contamination issue. You're likely going to get very healthy Bettas if you get them in their little cups (which aren't designed to be their homes) when they first arrive at those fish and pet stores. After the Bettas have been hanging out in those cups for a few days, next to other Betta cups, they are going to be subjected to the same kill or be killed stress as those in the vase in the bathroom.
Spring water. You don't have to dechlorinate it. There's no chlorine in bottled water. Tap water is actually healthier once you've neutralized the chlorine and chlorimines. Regular old tap water has minerals in it that fish need to produce healthy bones and tissue.
You're right about the dishwasher idea. You don't need to. A common mistake many people make is keeping fish's tanks (or vases) too clean. There are beneficial bacteria that colonize all of the surfaces that are under water. Those bacteria clean the water. Occasionally we need to go in and thin the bacteria out or it actually will start over populating itself and start killing itself off, which pollutes the water.
Oh! You mentioned burrowing in the roots of the bamboo. That's not burrowing, that's hiding from that killer Betta in the mirror.
Ummm, about the tiny fancy goldfish. There's no such thing. Black moors and other small goldfish you get are just young. They normally grow to at least 5" long. Ones that don't have stunted growth because of small environments and often in conjunction with poor water quality. Goldfish would be able to handle the temp in the bathroom and not get stressed out by the mirror, but a vase is just massively too small.
If you want something that will work in the bathroom in a vase with a live plant, I recommend getting some freshwater shrimp. Red cherry shrimp, to be exact. You can house 4-6 in one of those vases. They don't mind it being unheated and could care less about the mirror. You won't find them at Walmart and its quite doubtful that Petco will carry them. If you find an aquarium club in your area your best bet is getting some from a local hobbiest. Stores that sell only fish are likely to have some. Another beginner freshwater shrimp option is ghost shrimp. They are cheap because they are usually sold as live fish food. They are a little bigger and may not handle the transition as well as getting some juvenile RCS (Red Cherry Shrimp). I think shrimp are just as fun to watch as fish. They eat fish food so you don't even need to get anything fancy to feed them. Change about 1/8 of the volume of water a week and you're good to go.
Sorry the Betta didn't work out. It would have looked cool.
Good luck!
- Thread starter
- #27
I must say...it looked REALLY cool.
The mirror must be the issue.
If I move the fish further from the mirror, do you think he'll come back around? Or should I simply euthanize him now and be done with it?
As for eating the food, no, neither of them would touch the food. Do you think female bettas would do better in there? I know the females can be just as territorial, but I think the temperature is still going to nail them.
The mirror must be the issue.
If I move the fish further from the mirror, do you think he'll come back around? Or should I simply euthanize him now and be done with it?
As for eating the food, no, neither of them would touch the food. Do you think female bettas would do better in there? I know the females can be just as territorial, but I think the temperature is still going to nail them.
The temp will kill them. Betta are great fish, but they need it warmer. At the bare minimum I would recommend for Betta is 78º if you want it to survive more than a few months.
You need to get rid of the plants, unless you use a completely submersed aquarium variety. They are suffocating - Betta are able to live in water without additional air bubbles because they have a sac in their mouths where they can gulp the surface and process a bubble for oxygen.
It is a misnomer that one can create a complete ecosystem with a betta and plant - there are variables too high to calculate that would explain why... It is also a misnomer that Bettas thrive in small spaces - that's a sales technique.
A goldfish will die in the setup you posted - they are very sensitive to pH and absolutely positively can't live without additional air (air pump+ air stone) and some sort of filtration, or a water change every two days.
Your betta will live if you do a water change, and remove the plants - you might be able to put one bamboo stem back in - but let the poor thing have some oxygen for a while first to recover... I'd also really consider getting a bigger container for it.
Good luck and keep us posted!!
... ooh geez, I just saw Andi's wonderful thoughtful post before mine - listen to Andi... and get a bigger container
(I had a few from Thailand too! Beautiful fish - decided to go with the local stock tho - the packaging they came in broke my heart!)
It is a misnomer that one can create a complete ecosystem with a betta and plant - there are variables too high to calculate that would explain why... It is also a misnomer that Bettas thrive in small spaces - that's a sales technique.
A goldfish will die in the setup you posted - they are very sensitive to pH and absolutely positively can't live without additional air (air pump+ air stone) and some sort of filtration, or a water change every two days.
Your betta will live if you do a water change, and remove the plants - you might be able to put one bamboo stem back in - but let the poor thing have some oxygen for a while first to recover... I'd also really consider getting a bigger container for it.
Good luck and keep us posted!!
... ooh geez, I just saw Andi's wonderful thoughtful post before mine - listen to Andi... and get a bigger container
(I had a few from Thailand too! Beautiful fish - decided to go with the local stock tho - the packaging they came in broke my heart!)
Quote:
Not yet! Try removing the plants first and do a water change (and yes, remove the mirror to take away some stress ) - see if he will recover
What I have found about "Females" is that they are not really females at all, but actually Plakats... a shorter finned version of Bettas that are actually used in Thailand as fighting fish.. they're even more aggressive than the Delta tails or halfmoons - I think they are being mis-sold - and a lot of times PetCo/smart etc will swear up and down that they're females... but they simply don't know the difference. True females aren't aggressive toward one another, and make a beautiful aquarium grouping... Either way, they won't live any better than your cheeky little boyo in the setup you have currently for the same reasons you are finding it troublesome for him.
Oh good luck! - I sure hope he bounces back.
Not yet! Try removing the plants first and do a water change (and yes, remove the mirror to take away some stress ) - see if he will recover
What I have found about "Females" is that they are not really females at all, but actually Plakats... a shorter finned version of Bettas that are actually used in Thailand as fighting fish.. they're even more aggressive than the Delta tails or halfmoons - I think they are being mis-sold - and a lot of times PetCo/smart etc will swear up and down that they're females... but they simply don't know the difference. True females aren't aggressive toward one another, and make a beautiful aquarium grouping... Either way, they won't live any better than your cheeky little boyo in the setup you have currently for the same reasons you are finding it troublesome for him.
Oh good luck! - I sure hope he bounces back.
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