Black, Blue and Splash (BBS) Marans discussion thread

[ataraninja1]

Your info is a little off..... they pullets will be black coppers. They may not express the copper but they carry the genes. Breeding them back to black coppers will only produce more black coppers. Not sure how this would produce black. It might produce some over melanized copper but they are not truly solid black birds.

I used the info on the Breedbook genetics calculator to come to that conclusion: http://www.breedbook.org/?action=geneticscalculator&tab=CHICKEN

Also, Bev of Bev's Marans claims to have used a black copperx cuckoo cross to create her line although i'm still trying to get clarification on that. I just have a production line of cuckoos that I would like to make SQ. Black Coppers are the best specimen in my area as far as type and egg color go, so I thought to use them. Then found that they would make sex links with the females supposedly being genetically black. I don't really understand all the chicken color genetics. I'm usually pretty good at that stuff but there are just too many genes to consider.

I think after a few generations and if the males don't show copper, they would be solid blacks. the only other alternative is to buy a totally new line of blues and make a BBS marans pen. But honestly I doubt I can find anyone with solid BBS in my area. Everyone has BCM or Blue Coppers.

 

[ataraninja1]

Ok just looked it up!

Here is the genotype of the female offspring based on breedbook for a calculation of the following crosses:

Birchen x Cuckoo
E/E^R,co+/co+,db+/db+,pg+/pg+,ml+/ml+,Cha+/Cha+,mh+/mh+,di+/di+,Ig+/Ig+,cb+/cb+,i+/i+,bl+/bl+,Lav+/Lav+,C+/C+,Mo+/Mo+,b+/-,S/-,Choc+/-

Black copper x Cuckoo

E/E^R,co+/co+,db+/db+,pg+/pg+,ml+/ml+,Cha+/Cha+,Mh/mh+,di+/di+,Ig+/Ig+,cb+/cb+,i+/i+,bl+/bl+,Lav+/Lav+,C+/C+,Mo+/Mo+,b+/-,s+/-,Choc+/-

Only genetic difference between the two is in the next to last section. One has S/- and the other has s+/-
So what does that gene mean and how does that make the offspring of a Birchen different from the offspring of a Black Copper cross?

 

[DMRippy]

Ok just looked it up!

Here is the genotype of the female offspring based on breedbook for a calculation of the following crosses:

Birchen x Cuckoo
E/E^R,co+/co+,db+/db+,pg+/pg+,ml+/ml+,Cha+/Cha+,mh+/mh+,di+/di+,Ig+/Ig+,cb+/cb+,i+/i+,bl+/bl+,Lav+/Lav+,C+/C+,Mo+/Mo+,b+/-,S/-,Choc+/-

Black copper x Cuckoo

E/E^R,co+/co+,db+/db+,pg+/pg+,ml+/ml+,Cha+/Cha+,Mh/mh+,di+/di+,Ig+/Ig+,cb+/cb+,i+/i+,bl+/bl+,Lav+/Lav+,C+/C+,Mo+/Mo+,b+/-,s+/-,Choc+/-

Only genetic difference between the two is in the next to last section. One has S/- and the other has s+/-
So what does that gene mean and how does that make the offspring of a Birchen different from the offspring of a Black Copper cross?

I don't read genetics very well. I know the S is silver but you also missed the Mh is mahogany gene and that is red gene.

Visually looking black and genetically being black are two different things. I can tell you from experience the red in copper will pop up all the time!

This will show you the offspring too. You really might want to take this conversation to a genetics thread. There are some very knowledgeable people on BYC.....

http://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html

 

[Finnie]

http://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html

Thank you for the link. I think I see what you are saying now. It's not that it is recessive, it's that there are other genes that when they are present, mask the copper. And if you go along breeding what looks like a solid black bird, and then those other genes are removed, the copper that was there all along is allowed to be expressed. And therefore, better to keep the lines free from copper in the first place.

This is not unlike breeding albino budgies, which I understand better. They can be hiding all manner of unwanted genetics, and it is risky to introduce them to your normal budgie lines, if you don't want those other things to crop up in the future.

I certainly need to learn a lot more of the chicken genetics. I am going to look in the genetics area of the forum and see if there is a BBS Marans thread there.

 

[ataraninja1]

I don't read genetics very well. I know the S is silver but you also missed the Mh is mahogany gene and that is red gene.

Visually looking black and genetically being black are two different things. I can tell you from experience the red in copper will pop up all the time!

This will show you the offspring too. You really might want to take this conversation to a genetics thread. There are some very knowledgeable people on BYC.....

http://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html

Ah. I see that now. But it is heterozygous for the Mh, so hypothetically, if you breed the offspring to each other, the 25% will be homozygous for the recessive trait mh. It would be difficult to isolate which birds carry which genotype I'm sure and I wish I knew more of chicken genetics, but it was a thought of how to use the existing birds instead of purchasing a whole new flock. But I found someone with solid blues, so I might just be getting some of them. That way I have a 25% chance of getting the solid blacks that I seek. And honestly, since I'm not breeding show birds right now, any solid black looking bird that throws offspring of solid black will work for me. I just love those solid black birds!

 

[ataraninja1]

That calculator does go into more detail. And since I think I finally figured it out, now it looks like, choosing a male from that original cross will result in SOME offspring carrying on the solid black characteristics, but some will have columbian markings in gold and red, reminiscent of the Black Copper. So it would be a complicated task to isolate the offspring that do not carry the columbian restriction gene or the genes for Black copper.

 

[DMRippy]

That calculator does go into more detail. And since I think I finally figured it out, now it looks like, choosing a male from that original cross will result in SOME offspring carrying on the solid black characteristics, but some will have columbian markings in gold and red, reminiscent of the Black Copper. So it would be a complicated task to isolate the offspring that do not carry the columbian restriction gene or the genes for Black copper.

MELANIZERS are your enemy there. They can cover up the red, it will still be there you can't see it in the phenotype but it will show back up. There is also another gene that make Coppers gold. The MH gene is the really RED look like on BLRW or Partridge birds but that is not a desired trait in Marans really. There is a gold gene in there too and they are TWO DIFFERENT GENES so you will have two things to combat.

You can get SOLID birds. You would save yourself a lot of work.

 

[ataraninja1]

Yea, I think I've found someone with solid birds. I just was going to try that so I could work with what I have. But the problem is when people call a bird blue or black when its really blue copper or black copper. I'm like, "I want SOLID birds, not coppers!!!" But some people just don't get it. Hopefully the ones I'm getting this week are REAL black marans from blue birds to get my program started right.

 

[Csoldan]

I'm looking for a solid black rooster. I have two pullets and would love to hatch my own eggs.
Any help from anyone would be very appreciated.
Thanks
Cathy

 

[DMRippy]

I'm looking for a solid black rooster. I have two pullets and would love to hatch my own eggs.
Any help from anyone would be very appreciated.
Thanks
Cathy

What is a gold laced cuckoo marans? Never heard of that or seen one. Where did you get your solid blue and black marans? they are hard to come by.