Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[youngbiddy]

I've got a question for Don. I've seen you comment about the dangers of brother/sister breeding in Marans; does that mean that you can't use the spiral breeding method with them?

http://www.pathfindersfarm.com/Spiral.html

Thank you!

 

[snowbird]

Quote:
Hi, After the first year you would actually be using three lines to cross back and forth between each and basically if you culled real close would never have to add any new blood in your flock. The things to watch for in breeding brothers and sisters over an extended amount of time if you do not cull real heavy anything with faults they will really multiply and destroy your flock. Anyone that likes the brother sister matings by culling real heavy can develop a line of fowl that will all look just alike. Sometime out of necessity there is a need to breed Brother-Sister.

The spiral methods is really a good method and have tried it before, but since I like to single mate my fowl I just use linebreeding where no brothers and sisters are mated together. I have to say the spiral system would also work with single matings also.

 

[VillageChicken]

I did some digging on a forum that some genetic "big dogs" frequent, and this is what I found on foot feathering as it relates to Marans
Keep in mind that Pti-1L is outer toe feathering, and Pti-1B is outer and middle toe.

There are 3 loci, but 4 mutations.

The ptilopody loci:

Pti-1
Pti-2
pti-3



The ptilopody mutations:

Pti-1^B
Pti-1^L
Pti-2
pti-3



The mutation alleles of the Pti-1 locus

Pti-1^B
Pti-1^L



So, as chickens are diploid animals (autosomal chromosomes come in pairs) you can have the following combinations on the Pti-1 locus in a individual chicken:

Pti-1^B/Pti-1^B or
Pti-1^B/pti-1^+ or
Pti-1^B/Pti-1^L or
Pti-1^L/Pti-1^L or
Pti-1^L/pti-1^+ or
pti-1^+/pti-1^+

So the above 6 genotypes would produce something like this:

Brahma type 2 toe feathering
Sparse Brahma type 2 toe feathering??
Two toe feathering, sparse on 2nd toe??
Marans type single toe feathering
Sparse Marans type single toe feathering
Clean shanks

This does not include the affect of a known recessive shank inhibitor that can be found in some utility breeds such as sussex, leghorns, RIR and Rocks.
This inhibitor is why you can get clean shanks from feathered parents, and more feathered shanks than you would expect from a sparsely feathered x non-feathered (inhibited) cross.​

 

[snowbird]

Quote:
Hi, I would not go back and try and read all the posts, Just join in and ask your questions as you move forward.

 

[youngbiddy]

Quote:
Now he says that after I've already read this entire thread and almost 1400 pages of the Marans thread.....

 

[snowbird]

Quote:
Now he says that after I've already read this entire thread and almost 1400 pages of the Marans thread.....

Yes, and posters can always send a pm if they do not like or are leery of posting. I always answer PMs. You are one of the few that would remember what you read early on on the threads also I would be willing to bet.

 

[Hens and Roos]

Quote:
Hi, After the first year you would actually be using three lines to cross back and forth between each and basically if you culled real close would never have to add any new blood in your flock. The things to watch for in breeding brothers and sisters over an extended amount of time if you do not cull real heavy anything with faults they will really multiply and destroy your flock. Anyone that likes the brother sister matings by culling real heavy can develop a line of fowl that will all look just alike. Sometime out of necessity there is a need to breed Brother-Sister.

The spiral methods is really a good method and have tried it before, but since I like to single mate my fowl I just use linebreeding where no brothers and sisters are mated together. I have to say the spiral system would also work with single matings also.

So what do you do in the situation when the offspring are better than the parents- would you cull the parents or breed offspring back to parents?

 

[youngbiddy]

Quote:
Thank you! I'm working on a graph of this method since I'm not familiar with it. For things like this I need a visual.

 

[youngbiddy]

Quote:
Now he says that after I've already read this entire thread and almost 1400 pages of the Marans thread.....

Yes, and posters can always send a pm if they do not like or are leery of posting. I always answer PMs. You are one of the few that would remember what you read early on on the threads also I would be willing to bet.

I've got a great visual memory like that, fortunately. The first 600 pages or so of the other Marans thread was particularly chockful of good information. Thanks to all the pictures, critiques, and explanations of compensatory breeding I've learned a great deal from you guys.

 

[snowbird]

Quote:
Hi, After the first year you would actually be using three lines to cross back and forth between each and basically if you culled real close would never have to add any new blood in your flock. The things to watch for in breeding brothers and sisters over an extended amount of time if you do not cull real heavy anything with faults they will really multiply and destroy your flock. Anyone that likes the brother sister matings by culling real heavy can develop a line of fowl that will all look just alike. Sometime out of necessity there is a need to breed Brother-Sister.

The spiral methods is really a good method and have tried it before, but since I like to single mate my fowl I just use linebreeding where no brothers and sisters are mated together. I have to say the spiral system would also work with single matings also.

So what do you do in the situation when the offspring are better than the parents- would you cull the parents or breed offspring back to parents?

The oldtime chicken people always had a saying do not buy the good young fowl buy what produced them. Then you can breed lots of the good ones. In my setup you would breed young back to parents