Black Copper Marans discussion thread

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by geebs, Jan 26, 2011.

  1. Wynette

    Wynette Moderator Staff Member

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    Michigan
    Quote:I have not seen this ever described as "double crettilion" - I've learned something today (well, I learn new things EVERY day, but you know what I mean!) if that's the case! Hmmm....anyone?
     
  2. pinkchick

    pinkchick "Ain't nuttin' like having da' blues"

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    Washington State
    Quote:It is showing up in many lines of birds . . . you just never know WHEN something got mixed in. The thoughts are it is a recessive trait that requires both parents to be carring a gene for it to occur. That is the thought that is being tested by some of the folks that are suddenly having it show up in their lines.

    The thoughts are that sometimes a warning will show up as a sprig that folks ignored and then bred. The next generation produces more of an issue with carnation combs.

    I do not believe that it is line specific.

    I am one of those folks that have suddenly had carnation combs show up in my birds. After breeding a pure line bird for 3 years I had never had a carnation comb or sprig pop up or express in birds that I have, nor had I received any word from anyone owning any birds from me via chick or egg that carnation or sprigs had been produced in any of their birds. Last year I added some pure new blood to my birds and first matings with those birds to my original rooster produced carnation combs. This year almost everyone who got hatching eggs from me got a carnation chick or 2.
    I have not come up with anything in concrete about the carnation comb and if it takes 2 copies of the gene, one copy from each parent (I have a sneaky sneaky suspicion that it does), to express and my original rooster just died.
    With my boy Gnarles dead, I have to rely on his son, who is the product from the new blood that I brought in and my original roo, so there may be a possibility that he carries the gene, but he does not express it, he has a nice comb. I will be doing a test mating in January with this young cockerel to the new blood hens, one of the hens he will be crossed back to is his mother, will be interesting to see what they produce together, if I don't get any carnations then I will assume that the male does not carry the gene. I know as a fact one of the hens that I have left from heavy culling is carrying that gene because I have a young cockerel right now that has carnation comb that was produced by one of them, just don't know which one it is. [​IMG]
    Then I am thinking I am going to test the hens to an out of breed male that has a single comb and see what happens....if I do not get carnations with the out of breed cross then I will have to assume that it does take 2 copies to make it express. With only 4 hens left after heavily culling earlier this year after the carnations popped up in my birds combs, narrowing down who may be a carrier should be pretty easy, unless this roo does not carry the gene as previously mentioned.
    If all that fails, my next step will be to use the young cockerel I am growing out that has a nice little carnation comb emerging and see where that gets me. Thinking if I breed him to an out of breed hen with a single comb and if I get carnations then they willy nilly express anytime they want to and it only takes 1 copy of the gene, or every single chicken breed out there carries the gene way way way back in their genetics and the right genetic combination happens and magically we get carnations. The comb much like the egg color I believe is still pretty much a big mystery and 90% chance of whatever genetics are in there.....who really knows right? I'm all sorts of even more confused now after recently learning that the single comb is recessive to the Rose and Pea. My brain can't take anymore! [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2011
  3. Debbi

    Debbi Overrun With Chickens

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    Quote:It is showing up in many lines of birds . . . you just never know WHEN something got mixed in. The thoughts are it is a recessive trait that requires both parents to be carring a gene for it to occur. That is the thought that is being tested by some of the folks that are suddenly having it show up in their lines.

    The thoughts are that sometimes a warning will show up as a sprig that folks ignored and then bred. The next generation produces more of an issue with carnation combs.

    I do not believe that it is line specific.

    I am one of those folks that have suddenly had carnation combs show up in my birds. After breeding a pure line bird for 3 years I had never had a carnation comb or sprig pop up or express in birds that I have, nor had I received any word from anyone owning any birds from me via chick or egg that carnation or sprigs had been produced in any of their birds. Last year I added some pure new blood to my birds and first matings with those birds to my original rooster produced carnation combs. This year almost everyone who got hatching eggs from me got a carnation chick or 2.
    I have not come up with anything in concrete about the carnation comb and if it takes 2 copies of the gene, one copy from each parent (I have a sneaky sneaky suspicion that it does), to express and my original rooster just died.
    With my boy Gnarles dead, I have to rely on his son, who is the product from the new blood that I brought in and my original roo, so there may be a possibility that he carries the gene, but he does not express it, he has a nice comb. I will be doing a test mating in January with this young cockerel to the new blood hens, one of the hens he will be crossed back to is his mother, will be interesting to see what they produce together, if I don't get any carnations then I will assume that the male does not carry the gene. I know as a fact one of the hens that I have left from heavy culling is carrying that gene because I have a young cockerel right now that has carnation comb that was produced by one of them, just don't know which one it is. [​IMG]
    Then I am thinking I am going to test the hens to an out of breed male that has a single comb and see what happens....if I do not get carnations with the out of breed cross then I will have to assume that it does take 2 copies to make it express. With only 4 hens left after heavily culling earlier this year after the carnations popped up in my birds combs, narrowing down who may be a carrier should be pretty easy, unless this roo does not carry the gene as previously mentioned.
    If all that fails, my next step will be to use the young cockerel I am growing out that has a nice little carnation comb emerging and see where that gets me. Thinking if I breed him to an out of breed hen with a single comb and if I get carnations then they willy nilly express anytime they want to and it only takes 1 copy of the gene, or every single chicken breed out there carries the gene way way way back in their genetics and the right genetic combination happens and magically we get carnations. The comb much like the egg color I believe is still pretty much a big mystery and 90% chance of whatever genetics are in there.....who really knows right? I'm all sorts of even more confused now after recently learning that the single comb is recessive to the Rose and Pea. My brain can't take anymore! [​IMG]

    Pink ~ If you breed the cockerel that expresses the carnation, that means he already has the two genes, and will pass it on to the offspring, Marans or not. That's just what I've seen here, but it was only with Marans, and without single mating everyone here, I still have to wonder. I highly doubt that there are a lot of other breeds running around with Pene genes, but you never know. Please let me know what you get out of him, I'll be very interested to see if my theory is correct, as we all should be.
     
  4. pinkchick

    pinkchick "Ain't nuttin' like having da' blues"

    9,573
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    May 30, 2008
    Washington State
    Quote:I do not believe that it is line specific.

    I am one of those folks that have suddenly had carnation combs show up in my birds. After breeding a pure line bird for 3 years I had never had a carnation comb or sprig pop up or express in birds that I have, nor had I received any word from anyone owning any birds from me via chick or egg that carnation or sprigs had been produced in any of their birds. Last year I added some pure new blood to my birds and first matings with those birds to my original rooster produced carnation combs. This year almost everyone who got hatching eggs from me got a carnation chick or 2.
    I have not come up with anything in concrete about the carnation comb and if it takes 2 copies of the gene, one copy from each parent (I have a sneaky sneaky suspicion that it does), to express and my original rooster just died.
    With my boy Gnarles dead, I have to rely on his son, who is the product from the new blood that I brought in and my original roo, so there may be a possibility that he carries the gene, but he does not express it, he has a nice comb. I will be doing a test mating in January with this young cockerel to the new blood hens, one of the hens he will be crossed back to is his mother, will be interesting to see what they produce together, if I don't get any carnations then I will assume that the male does not carry the gene. I know as a fact one of the hens that I have left from heavy culling is carrying that gene because I have a young cockerel right now that has carnation comb that was produced by one of them, just don't know which one it is. [​IMG]
    Then I am thinking I am going to test the hens to an out of breed male that has a single comb and see what happens....if I do not get carnations with the out of breed cross then I will have to assume that it does take 2 copies to make it express. With only 4 hens left after heavily culling earlier this year after the carnations popped up in my birds combs, narrowing down who may be a carrier should be pretty easy, unless this roo does not carry the gene as previously mentioned.
    If all that fails, my next step will be to use the young cockerel I am growing out that has a nice little carnation comb emerging and see where that gets me. Thinking if I breed him to an out of breed hen with a single comb and if I get carnations then they willy nilly express anytime they want to and it only takes 1 copy of the gene which would be easier in helping to narrow it down, or it shows that every single chicken breed out there carries the gene way way way back in their genetics and the right genetic combination happens and magically we get carnations. The comb much like the egg color I believe is still pretty much a big mystery and 90% chance of whatever genetics are in there.....who really knows right? I'm all sorts of even more confused now after recently learning that the single comb is recessive to the Rose and Pea. My brain can't take anymore! [​IMG]

    Pink ~ If you breed the cockerel that expresses the carnation, that means he already has the two genes, and will pass it on to the offspring, Marans or not. That's just what I've seen here, but it was only with Marans, and without single mating everyone here, I still have to wonder. I highly doubt that there are a lot of other breeds running around with Pene genes, but you never know. Please let me know what you get out of him, I'll be very interested to see if my theory is correct, as we all should be.

    Yeah Debbi I know I am all confused and I see what you are saying and where I am probably confused with my thinking and what I worded wrong, edited in bold italics above. This is what I get for being on hold on the phone and listening to prompts from silicone sal at the phone company and trying to convey my thoughts at the same time. [​IMG]

    In theory if he has 2 copies, he would pass along one copy to his kids and if I bred one of his kids to one of the BC hens, (if I don't happen to get any carnations out of any of the above crosses that I plan on doing with Gnarles' son or the out of breed male to the females), then I would know for sure the offspring from the carnation male has one copy and if single mated back to the BC females should definitely produce carnations because at least one of these hens has to be carrying. Right now I am shooting in the dark because I no longer have Gnarles' who was the bird that was the father to all of the carnations produced to single test mate anymore. Trying to track down carnations that come from birds that do not show it is tricky and time consuming and with one of the guilty or suspected guilty parties gone, it gets a little trickier I feel. It will be the long way to it, but if I don't get any carnations the other ways, its the only thing I can think of as the next step to see who carries and if it takes 2 or 1. So did I just confuse myself even further and everyone else as well for that matter? [​IMG]
    It's hard to explain what I am thinking exactly....I wish I had the abililty to explain the things running around in my head a little better.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2011
  5. VillageChicken

    VillageChicken Chillin' With My Peeps

    Hey, weren't you guys talking about carnations on the main Marans thread?
    Research on carnations suggests there are TWO dominant genes, a perfect carnation comb having two copies of BOTH genes.

    Think of sprigs as in bad carnations, or incomplete ones. Sprigs require A gene PLUS B gene. One copy of each one is enough.

    Your whole flock could have A gene, one or two copies, and it will still not express. Add new blood to your flock and just one rooster with the B gene can start producing sprigs (A+B) from ALL your hens if they all have the A gene. A gene and B genes separately don't express anything. This is why it can hide, and why it's persisted in Marans flocks for so long.

    I think most folks are happy to eliminate one gene or the other, but it's an almost impossible process to eliminate both.

    Sorry to confuse things even more. But this is what I have learned in researching it, but not experienced personally.
     
  6. math ace

    math ace Overrun With Chickens

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    Jacksonville, FL
    Quote:[​IMG] OMG, I think I actually understood that little genetic conversation [​IMG]
     
  7. Hens and Roos

    Hens and Roos Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Cottage Grove, WI
    Quote:great information [​IMG]
     
  8. MicheleC

    MicheleC Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Lake Charles
    Hi, my computer is down and am surfing on my phone. I have some maran chicks I purchased a few months ago I would like opinions on. These chickens were separated breed, but I have some odd coloring. If anyone is willing to exchange email addresses with me so I may send you the pics, I would Greatly appreciate it. Both parents are BCM, but I have a blue, and a few " Wheaton " that are more red than anything. They are approximately 3 months old. Thank You!!!
     
  9. RedBugPoultry

    RedBugPoultry Chillin' With My Peeps

    Jun 29, 2010
    Jasper Co., S.C.
    Quote:This does help me! Thank you!
     
  10. OwensMom

    OwensMom Chillin' With My Peeps

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    CO Western Slope
    Sorry if this is far removed from the current topic. I'm behind the curve here. But someone said a few pages ago "but have since been bred true to type. So I the "purebred" chickens are birds that are breeding true to type also -"
    I guess that this has been my dilema. I come from the horse world. When I buy a certain line, I understand that there are individual differences but basically true to type. I think that there is not enough culling in the horse world-those culled can be sold as unregistered.
    So when I bought certain chicken lines I did expect some varience but was I surprised!! I think that this discussion is very important to those of us new to the game. I thank you all for your honest and informative discussion.
     

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