Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[Ihilani Coffee]

They can be nearly impossible to tell apart in a mixed flock. I keep all mine separated at hatch and I toe punch so I can keep track of each line.

X10!

 

[Searsmom]

Anyone had BCM with slate legs halfway down to the tips of pink toes? They look kind of splotchy.

 

[MarshallPrime]

So I am new to this BCM, and really new to BYChickens. I just got back into chickens back in Sept since 4-H years ago. I bought 4 of what were supposed to be BCM from a somewhat local breeder here in Northern IN. I also got one splash pullet for fun. I bought them as pullets and what was supposed to b one cock and 4 pullets of course turned into 3 cocks and 2 pullets, one being the splash pullet. So I have 2 cocks that are feather legged BCM and one clean legged Black and one black pullet and one splash pullet. I have to sell, butcher, trade 2 of the cocks, my wife doesnt love all the crowing and really one is plenty so im moving the Black and i have to pick between the two BCM...

So I have two questions:
1- Which BCM cock is better, both nice birds but one has more brown on his chest and the other has black chest but eyes are a little strange, the wholes seem a little larger than his eyes themselves, little weird. both big nice birds, which is better?

2- If the BCM mates with each of the pullets, why type of chicks will i get, it would be:
BCM cock and Black clean legged pullet
BCM cock with splash clean legged pullet

They are laying but none have set yet...still young, all were hatched in May/June. They are in the coop with 3 americana, 1 barred rock and 5 isa browns. not a lot of sitters in this group but I hope one will soon and i will take back out the eggs that I think are from the 2 pullets and place them under the sitting hen. They are more speckled so i hope those are the ones i want, none are dark brown as I know u want with marans. Im working on getting my incubator working but the egg turner isnt cooperating and ive never used it so its taking some time.
Anyway, sorry for so long, lots of questions. This site is awesome.
thanks



these r pics of the one with brown on his chest, i cant find any pics of the eye issue. again, the eye issue isnt causing any trouble, just little a little odd/off.

 

[FVRM]

Anyone had BCM with slate legs halfway down to the tips of pink toes? They look kind of splotchy.

I have some chicks like that. I've read they turn slate when they get older

 

[Zanna]

So I am new to this BCM, and really new to BYChickens. I just got back into chickens back in Sept since 4-H years ago. I bought 4 of what were supposed to be BCM from a somewhat local breeder here in Northern IN. I also got one splash pullet for fun. I bought them as pullets and what was supposed to b one cock and 4 pullets of course turned into 3 cocks and 2 pullets, one being the splash pullet. So I have 2 cocks that are feather legged BCM and one clean legged Black and one black pullet and one splash pullet. I have to sell, butcher, trade 2 of the cocks, my wife doesnt love all the crowing and really one is plenty so im moving the Black and i have to pick between the two BCM...

So I have two questions:
1- Which BCM cock is better, both nice birds but one has more brown on his chest and the other has black chest but eyes are a little strange, the wholes seem a little larger than his eyes themselves, little weird. both big nice birds, which is better?

2- If the BCM mates with each of the pullets, why type of chicks will i get, it would be:
BCM cock and Black clean legged pullet
BCM cock with splash clean legged pullet

They are laying but none have set yet...still young, all were hatched in May/June. They are in the coop with 3 americana, 1 barred rock and 5 isa browns. not a lot of sitters in this group but I hope one will soon and i will take back out the eggs that I think are from the 2 pullets and place them under the sitting hen. They are more speckled so i hope those are the ones i want, none are dark brown as I know u want with marans. Im working on getting my incubator working but the egg turner isnt cooperating and ive never used it so its taking some time.
Anyway, sorry for so long, lots of questions. This site is awesome.
thanks



these r pics of the one with brown on his chest, i cant find any pics of the eye issue. again, the eye issue isnt causing any trouble, just little a little odd/off.

Side view pics of both boys would be more helpfull but from what you describe I would not use the cockeral pictured, too much colour on his chest. Most likely, your black pullet is a BCM, often they do not show the colour on their neck as they should and true Black Marans are much more rare. If you cross her with your BCM cockeral you will get BCM chicks. If the Cockeral not pictured has as heavy feathering on his legs as the one pictured that should help put feathers on the chicks legs even though the pullet is clean legged.

I have no idea what a BCM crossed with a Splash would give you but I am guessing just a Mutt as far as colour goes, I don't think you would get a recognized Marans colour but I am not sure, maybe someone else will comment.

Also, the Cockeral pictured appears to have a brown wing triangle, should be black. Even enlarging the picture I can not tell for sure though. This would indicate wheaten or wheaten influence. If the other cockerral has the same, you may end up with some wheaten coloured chicks with a cross over the black (assuming BCM) pullet.

 

[DMRippy]

BCM x Splash would be 100% blue.... is she Marans too? If she is 100% blue coppers.

 

[lonnyandrinda]

BCM x Splash would be 100% blue.... is she Marans too? If she is 100% blue coppers.

I was just wondering this myself- I picked up a Splash Marans pullet from a friend to put in my BCM pen just to see. Now I know! She's not laying yet but soon I hope!

 

[One Chick Two]

Hello!
I've committed to reading this entire thread and am FINALLY nearly finished.

What an amazing collection of knowledge contained within these pages! Thank you to the educators and people sharing their knowledge! I suggest to all committed newbies, reading this thread will help you! Things start to sink in.

One thing I've noticed time and again are confusions on color names. What is copper, mahogany, straw and gold?

Perhaps my many years experience in extensive hair coloring (on humans) lol, may possibly help? I am not talking genetics… just about "seeing" color so it can be accurately described. The color base hue on a given bird. I will try to simplify this.

Color of light is instrumental in a correct determination of color- any artist will tell you this. Look at your bird in sunlight, not indoors or under artificial lighting. I always used to show hair color swatches in sunlight, and always checked all colored hair outside as well, as indoor lighting is very deceiving. This is why makeup often looks best when applied with natural light.

Always aware of off-colors produced by surroundings, and reflections. It is best if you can check the bird in morning light to reduce midday glare, and avoid the yellow rays of the setting sun. Open shade, near strong sunlight can sometimes be used, but remember, it still can be a little off from reality. Cloudy days, can also sometimes throw white balance off, change color perception. Sunlight's best.

Our cockerel pictured below has bold, true "copper" hackles. You can see by the reflection in his eye that the sun was high in the sky when this photo was taken.

I have always considered his base color "copper" as it is concentrated in pure red base, with a bit of yellow base mixed in. Copper is not pure red, it has a small amount of yellow in the base. Sometimes copper has, perhaps a tiny bit of red violet in the base (means it has some blue in the color. Red and blue make purple. Blue also can darken or neutralizes red depending on amount- depends on copper depth desired). Coppers can be considered light to dark copper, red- copper to golden copper, etc., all depends on depth and tone desired.


Here's a human hair color chart below as an example, to show tonal range- or, depth level (light- dark), with tonal base (the under hue base of the colors… red, yellow or blue.). You can see golden-red, red and violet shade variances here next to each other. (People's computers are calibrated differently, so there may be off tones on your computer.)

The first number is tonal depth 1-10. The second, hue (by this manufacturer.) For instance, 5.6, 6.6 and 6.75 are both red-based "mahoganies" (red-violet bases.) They have different concentrations between their red and blue base concentrations, with 5.6 having more blue depth (or darkness) than a 7, which is a level darker than 8. Darker coppers can be made by adding more depth.

So, if you have a depth level (think light to dark on hair, or color...white- grays- to black):

11 white blonde
10 very light blonde
9 light blonde
8 medium blonde
7 dark blond
6 light brown
5 depth medium brown.
Etc.
eventually to 1 black.

In determining color hue, I consider this copper cockerel's hackle a little "redder" than pumpkin orange. A new penny has too much zinc to be an accurate copper comparison, as new pennies now often too "pink." He is not a bright, "Lucile Ball red" (that's a true "clear" red color base, not copper which usually has a small bit of yellow) as he has a tiny amount of yellow pigment mixed within red color pigment (look at his yellow base highlights), but he has much less yellow pigment to red ratio than I consider a flaming, "Agent Orange," which I consider is half and half red and yellow bases. Those would be the bases I would mix to create that color on hair.

In this photo, which was in open shade, on an overcast day, you can better see his color "depth" is at level 7. You can see his red copper, but also the small bit of yellow base mixed in- pure red concentrate is much more bright, less subdued.

So, if he had more pure red pigment (less yellow base), he would be considered a 'Xmas red' hackle. Now, if there was more red, PLUS violet (that is darker red, plus blue in the base) in his coloring, THEN, you have mahogany. Mahogany colors can also get VERY dark, but mahogany is never lighter than level 6 and always has a red violet base.

On the human haircolor chart below, you can clearly compare color hues and see that this cockerel falls at the depth of 7.6 "Red blonde" (but he has less than one part of yellow, two parts red, hence copper.) So, the 8.6 seen below on the chart is one level too light, plus it's also too yellow in the base tone.

Just remember, I am not talking genetics here… just about "seeing" color bases, so someone can determine actual hue. This can be helpful to determine where you are and where you need to go.

If the color "copper" that is desired for our birds is different than explained, the actual color may technically be called a slightly different name than just vague, "copper." For instance, "golden- red copper, red copper, pink- copper, copper brown," etc.

If you can determine base color and tonal level, it's easier to accurately identify color base, then you know where your bird is at colorwise. If anyone is interested in the gold/ straw colors, I could tell you the differences.

P.S. This is a basic red color chart on the Internet.

 

[Runawaylobster]

Hello!
I've committed to reading this entire thread and am FINALLY nearly finished.

What an amazing collection of knowledge contained within these pages! Thank you to the educators and people sharing their knowledge! I suggest to all committed newbies, reading this thread will help you! Things start to sink in.

One thing I've noticed time and again are confusions on color names. What is copper, mahogany, straw and gold?

Perhaps my many years experience in extensive hair coloring (on humans) lol, may possibly help? I am not talking genetics… just about "seeing" color so it can be accurately described. The color base hue on a given bird. I will try to simplify this.

Color of light is instrumental in a correct determination of color- any artist will tell you this. Look at your bird in sunlight, not indoors or under artificial lighting. I always used to show hair color swatches in sunlight, and always checked all colored hair outside as well, as indoor lighting is very deceiving. This is why makeup often looks best when applied with natural light.

Always aware of off-colors produced by surroundings, and reflections. It is best if you can check the bird in morning light to reduce midday glare, and avoid the yellow rays of the setting sun. Open shade, near strong sunlight can sometimes be used, but remember, it still can be a little off from reality. Cloudy days, can also sometimes throw white balance off, change color perception. Sunlight's best.

Our cockerel pictured below has bold, true "copper" hackles. You can see by the reflection in his eye that the sun was high in the sky when this photo was taken.

I have always considered his base color "copper" as it is concentrated in pure red base, with a bit of yellow base mixed in. Copper is not pure red, it has a small amount of yellow in the base. Sometimes copper has, perhaps a tiny bit of red violet in the base (means it has some blue in the color. Red and blue make purple. Blue also can darken or neutralizes red depending on amount- depends on copper depth desired). Coppers can be considered light to dark copper, red- copper to golden copper, etc., all depends on depth and tone desired.


Here's a human hair color chart below as an example, to show tonal range- or, depth level (light- dark), with tonal base (the under hue base of the colors… red, yellow or blue.). You can see golden-red, red and violet shade variances here next to each other. (People's computers are calibrated differently, so there may be off tones on your computer.)

The first number is tonal depth 1-10. The second, hue (by this manufacturer.) For instance, 5.6, 6.6 and 6.75 are both red-based "mahoganies" (red-violet bases.) They have different concentrations between their red and blue base concentrations, with 5.6 having more blue depth (or darkness) than a 7, which is a level darker than 8. Darker coppers can be made by adding more depth.

So, if you have a depth level (think light to dark on hair, or color...white- grays- to black):

11 white blonde
10 very light blonde
9 light blonde
8 medium blonde
7 dark blond
6 light brown
5 depth medium brown.
Etc.
eventually to 1 black.

In determining color hue, I consider this copper cockerel's hackle a little "redder" than pumpkin orange. A new penny has too much zinc to be an accurate copper comparison, as new pennies now often too "pink." He is not a bright, "Lucile Ball red" (that's a true "clear" red color base, not copper which usually has a small bit of yellow) as he has a tiny amount of yellow pigment mixed within red color pigment (look at his yellow base highlights), but he has much less yellow pigment to red ratio than I consider a flaming, "Agent Orange," which I consider is half and half red and yellow bases. Those would be the bases I would mix to create that color on hair.

In this photo, which was in open shade, on an overcast day, you can better see his color "depth" is at level 7. You can see his red copper, but also the small bit of yellow base mixed in- pure red concentrate is much more bright, less subdued.

So, if he had more pure red pigment (less yellow base), he would be considered a 'Xmas red' hackle. Now, if there was more red, PLUS violet (that is darker red, plus blue in the base) in his coloring, THEN, you have mahogany. Mahogany colors can also get VERY dark, but mahogany is never lighter than level 6 and always has a red violet base.

On the human haircolor chart below, you can clearly compare color hues and see that this cockerel falls at the depth of 7.6 "Red blonde" (but he has less than one part of yellow, two parts red, hence copper.) So, the 8.6 seen below on the chart is one level too light, plus it's also too yellow in the base tone.

Just remember, I am not talking genetics here… just about "seeing" color bases, so someone can determine actual hue. This can be helpful to determine where you are and where you need to go.

If the color "copper" that is desired for our birds is different than explained, the actual color may technically be called a slightly different name than just vague, "copper." For instance, "golden- red copper, red copper, pink- copper, copper brown," etc.

If you can determine base color and tonal level, it's easier to accurately identify color base, then you know where your bird is at colorwise. If anyone is interested in the gold/ straw colors, I could tell you the differences.

P.S. This is a basic red color chart on the Internet.

I can very much appreciate this, and the chart is great. I work for a paint company (car paint not house paint) and my lab tests color change with weather exposure... we do it a little differently in that we use a colorimeter to measure and get a number that represents the color, and subsequently the change in color. I have often wished i could use it on the roosters and find the perfect number to represent the copper... The one flaw in this is as you say is perception and we can have colors that change alot but are still visually acceptable to a customer, so after all this analysis we end up going to the visual evaluation using a macbeth light booth..

. If you don't have a macbeth booth then the standard is generally accepted as incident light from a north facing window. (cause i don't think many people have their own macbeth booth... even less, one that you could risk having a chicken poop in.. )

 

[One Chick Two]

I can very much appreciate this, and the chart is great. I work for a paint company (car paint not house paint) and my lab tests color change with weather exposure... we do it a little differently in that we use a colorimeter to measure and get a number that represents the color, and subsequently the change in color. I have often wished i could use it on the roosters and find the perfect number to represent the copper... The one flaw in this is as you say is perception and we can have colors that change alot but are still visually acceptable to a customer, so after all this analysis we end up going to the visual evaluation using a macbeth light booth..

. If you don't have a macbeth booth then the standard is generally accepted as incident light from a north facing window. (cause i don't think many people have their own macbeth booth... even less, one that you could risk having a chicken poop in.. )

Thanks so much, Runawaylobster. Excellent, intriguing post.

Your job sounds fascinating! We seem to be on a similar page along this line of thinking. Do you know what kind of lightbulbs are used in your Macbeth lighting booth? My DH knows about lightbulbs- he can probably tell us about the lighting sunlight spectrum that is being used in there- 2500K bulbs? (as you already know, most lighting's blah, as they usually only have a partial spectrum of sunlight.)

Yes, color is extremely subjective… everyone perceives it very differently.
However, that factor's not necessarily unworkable… There's a reason why nearly every colorist has used color swatches for the last 50 years or so.

So both colorist and coloree can be in harmony.

When testing for color, test fiber color swatches are usually spread across the head and hair. The matching swatch blends in well with the correct color so it's hard to mistake that. Why I believe hair swatches work so well, is that unlike paper, printing and paint, swatches are flexible and 3-D. They shine and reflect the light against each strand. They get highlights and lowlights as they bend and move- very much like a feather moves. They don't get creases, tear, break and take a very long time to fade- if they ever do. They are lightweight, inexpensive, easy to clean and anyone can learn to use them accurately.

Printing's less precise. Paper fades, gets damaged and it's difficult to keep color accurate over time- Wasn't this this was an issue with one version of the egg color chart? It's probably a little more expensive though. Just thinking out loud.

If the colorimeter can determine correct swatches (then, zero doubts of incorrect hues) of swatches of an acceptable range of colors- (say) 20 or so correct colors were chosen, it wouldn't be too hard to see how colors match up to birds in every area of their body. Hmmm.

Of course, even having the best, most reliable color tests wouldn't help a bit with color balance! lol

Now that's a whole other thing.