Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[Debbi]

Don ~ Here is my example of such a bird. This guy hatched looking like a BCM, then just this year, he is just over 2, he grew in one, cinnamon edged primary on each wing! He has not quite finished molting, but he did molt the two primaries out. Note, that like a Wheaten roo too, he has some grey fluff at the base of his tail. Right now he also has some white in the old sickle feathers, but those have always molted out. He also has near white shanks too, with a pinkish tone showing through. So obviously, somewhere in his past, there was a Wheaten!

 

[snowbird]

Don ~ Here is my example of such a bird. This guy hatched looking like a BCM, then just this year, he is just over 2, he grew in one, cinnamon edged primary on each wing! He has not quite finished molting, but he did molt the two primaries out. Note, that like a Wheaten roo too, he has some grey fluff at the base of his tail. Right now he also has some white in the old sickle feathers, but those have always molted out. He also has near white shanks too, with a pinkish tone showing through. So obviously, somewhere in his past, there was a Wheaten!

Debbi, Good info. for everyone. There are plenty of tell tell signs if only we will open up our minds to accept them, Thanks

 

[Debbi]

Thanks Don. The one thing I will say about this boy, is that he has never shown the brown tinge to his black fluff areas, or anywhere else. His chest is a very deep black, which may be hard to see in this pic as it was taken in bright light, but all of his black is very black, and always has been. I need to reclaim a bit of what I said before. While feeding tonight, I did notice that he still appears to have some cinnamon coloring on his left wing! I had taken a pic of his wings earlier this year, but either they were mixed in with other pics and I haven't found them yet, or I deleted them. I will try to capture the beast tomorrow and take some more pics if I can't find the other one. This is just yet another question as to why these males do not show their true "colors" until at least age 2 years. He has also almost doubled in bulk within the last year. Makes me leery to cut anyone out of the flock now before 2 years of age, that is unless they have obvious DQs, as you may not know what you are breeding back into the flock! The other boys, who are both melanistic, are now showing white in their wings that they never did before! With them, I had had white wing tips, and tired white sickle feathers, all of which molted out; but now they have quite a few half white feathers in the wings! The white appears in the middle of the feathers. So herein lies the quandry. If you are breeding cockerels of 9 months to a year old or less, are you really just doing the breed and your own flock a disservice; when they don't seem to mature (roos anyway), until at least 2 years of age?? From what I've seen here in the last 6 months, I'd have to say yes! But then who wants to, or can afford to, hang on to a bunch of potential roos for at least 2 years before breeding them?

 

[tadkerson]

Tim. the BCM with the white and light slate colored legs are showing the wheaten influence that is found in most BCM.

Should of said found in the BCM males

I have been working with Bev Davis for 3 years or so and some other Marans breeders.. Adding a melinizer would not help with the problems associated with wheaten in BCM. Breed out the wheaten and produce purebred birchen (gene not variety).

Tim

 

[geebs]

http://frenchmaransclubaustralia.yolasite.com/notes-on-breeding.php

This is a really cool page... Look at the chicks and such... The look of the adult can give you clues as to the genes hiding.. This is why I start with the eyes etc... Maybe this will help some ppl with what to cull etc... I am a visual person and get lost in the chicken math... (not that kind of chicken math.. but I guess it applies too) LOL genetic code gets confusing with all the restrictors etc... Hope the visual aid is helpful to some folks.

 

[Debbi]

I have been working with Bev Davis for 3 years or so and some other Marans breeders.. Adding a melinizer would not help with the problems associated with wheaten in BCM. Breed out the wheaten and produce purebred birchen (gene not variety).

Tim

Tim,

I did not put my roo's pic up there to show what to breed for, but rather to show what to breed against. I have two otherwise melanized BCM roos that have not helped with the production of copper in the BCM offspring, either male or female. The roo I pictured was to show the Wheaten influence that has been erroniously crossed into the Black Copper lines. It is far more wide spread than known. There is also the factor of the Penedesenca breed that was crossed into the BCM lines, that has done irreputable damage as far as the purity of the BCM lines go in this country! Now whether they used the Wheaten variety of Penes in the cross, I don't know; but it sure makes me wonder..

 

[ashandvine]

No ignorance, that is a good question. The sex linked barring gene that makes the barring pattern removes the black from the shanks. One barring does ok in females but males can have two barring genes- that is why they have the pink/white shanks. They also have white skin therefore white shanks and feet. If they had yellow skin, they would have yellow shanks. Females can have swarthy shanks in some breeds and that is because they carry one barring gene, which does not clean up the black as well as two barring genes.

Is this an answer to my question about why the legs of a fcbm would be white/silver/light grey? If the barring gene does this then does that mean that every bcm who shows light shanks like this is carrying the wheaton gene? I may sound simple, forgive me, but this is what you all seem to be saying. I did very well when we were talking about boots and socks
White skin could mean that they would be great table birds though since the market prefers yellow or white skin. If the pink is hormonal then what is the green about?
What is swarthy? Swarthy=mottled?? Not solidly colored?
"The black coppers carry the birchen allele and should not have black shanks and feet." They should not? I understood Marans should have dark shanks and feet.

 

[snowbird]

I have been working with Bev Davis for 3 years or so and some other Marans breeders.. Adding a melinizer would not help with the problems associated with wheaten in BCM. Breed out the wheaten and produce purebred birchen (gene not variety).

Tim

Tim, Just how would you go about breeding out the wheaten Marans that has been put in most BC. As long as folks keep mixing up the varieties of Marans and adding fowl outside of the breed this problem will be there. There is no way the Mendel theory can tell anyone what is mixed up with the Marans, Sorry.

 

[heath_elisha]

Don ~ Here is my example of such a bird. This guy hatched looking like a BCM, then just this year, he is just over 2, he grew in one, cinnamon edged primary on each wing! He has not quite finished molting, but he did molt the two primaries out. Note, that like a Wheaten roo too, he has some grey fluff at the base of his tail. Right now he also has some white in the old sickle feathers, but those have always molted out. He also has near white shanks too, with a pinkish tone showing through. So obviously, somewhere in his past, there was a Wheaten!

I just noticed the kitties

 

[Debbi]

Pip is the kitty guardian around here! Where he is, there are always cats.