Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[snowbird]

I have too many boys. They are all 8 weeks old. Some are starting to develop a lot of color on their chests. I am a inclined to cull those at this point. Should I?









And what about this guy below? Is this a sign of more to come? I like this one for some reason so trying not to get sentimental.





Thanks.

I would ask you to ask yourself one question and that would be where did the white feet and legs come from. This is a good indicator that these males have some Wheaten in their background somewhere. That is also where the brown in the breast is coming from. I intend to show some 1/2 Wheaten and 1/2 BC so everyone can see where all this is coming from. I made the cross for informational purposes only.

 

[Wynette]

ashandvine, I don't have any regrets about the table bird properties of my Marans; I've got several in the freezer now, have eaten many, and though they are NOT Cornish by any stretch, I am not displeased in any way with the carcass value of them.

 

[Wynette]

Well I have a vocabulary and I'm not afraid to use it! I thought some people might need to look up parsimonious, quantitative, and perhaps even adjective. The Marans of America club website is where I came across this:
"Cock : Black-breasted red, with parsimonious red spotting on the breast. Having a black wing triangle. The red markings are not to be yellow or mahogany. Copper colored lancets in the neck hackle & the back. Deep red shoulders."

Even the word "red" is misleading here. My understanding is that the deep copper color should be consistent throughout all areas that have copper, and not be lighter (halo) at the bottom of the hackles or on the saddle or even "parsimoniously" on the breast, but all the same deep shade of copper. I'm a horse person, and so the color in my animal genetics dictionary would be "mahogany bay" but I know that mahogany is not a good word to use related to BCM as (I believe) it means the super super dark almost blackish of a true RIR. Again, I'm a newbie so please if I am incorrect I welcome edification from a knowledgeable source.

Okay, let's clear this up.

the Marans of America (MOA) club based THEIR SOP on the French club's SOP. The French club once indicated solid black breast for the black copper variety (sidebar: Brown/Red is different genetics than Black Copper); since then (maybe 10 years ago?), they updated their site to indicate that 10% or less (parsimonious) copper feathers in the breast were acceptable.

H O W E V E R - the MOA is not the club that submitted the APA for the Black Copper variety & gained APA recogniition; that was done by the Marans Chicken Club USA (MCCUSA).

Thus, we should all be following the APA SOP - and if you want to follow the club that submitted the SOP for this variety, MCCUSA is the club to become familiar with.

The Black Copper SOP calls for: Breast: Solid black or with a few copper spots. Not laced.

In my humble opinion, "a few copper spots" would even be less than 10%, but that's JMO.

Don'g get hug up on the percentage of copper in the breast. While you certainly should not keep a male with a heavily coppered breast, per the SOP. "a few copper spots" is fine for show, and/or breeding. If you have females that are overmelanized (too dark, not enough copper in hackles), you may want to put them under a male with a bit more than "a few copper spots" in the breast to help with increasing the copper in the hackles of the females.

Into AN english lesson.

Thanks, Bill!

 

[Maggiesdad]

So far the Chantecler is the only real dual purpose I have found although the Euskal wasn't too bad. I can eat any of them and they do lay eggs. When I butcher up a bird it has to have either legs/thighs or a breast to make it worth it. Most just don't. I think you have a good point though. Maybe I am asking too much, like some people do of the egg category instead of meat.

I don't think you're asking too much. And a 5lb Standard Bred Leghorn ckl wouldn't bother me to put on the table. I'm still drawing conclusions of my personal tastes and preferences... I will say this - the Am White Bresse is mighty fine. I haven't tried Euskal capons yet, they are coming next year. And they'll be up against the BCMs.

 

[marquisella]

Quote: And to clear up what Wynette said even more...the person who translated the French into the English, obviously was not very "bi lingual" .Much was not translated correctly. Here in the US the APA Marans standard is what everyone should go by. Other clubs "versions" are not the official standards and will only confuse people who are showing and breeding.

Actually, regarding the French changing their standard, It happened approximately the year before we applied for admission to the APA. We started out with the standard that said a pure black breast, then suddenly we discovered that the French standard had been changed to allow for a few spots. Those purist among us were not happy, but trying to keep close to the French as possible, are amended our proposed standard to include some copper inn the roosters breast.

I think I posted this once before, but I will repeat myself. The French standard was changed because, at some point, the French became aware that a lot of their roosters were getting the copper breast spots...upon, I don't know, investigation, it was realized that Wheaten has been innadvertantly mixed with the black copper and the results were spotted breasts & other issues.

This information came directly from one of the leading French breeders by the way.

So, the French now allow for a "few spots" on the breast. This will always be up to interpretation, unfortunately.

I'm one of the purest. I never, never use a roo that doesn't have a pure black breast. Yes, I do get some hens with dark hackles, but I do also get some decent copper hackles. C'est la vie!

 

[marquisella]

Quote: I don't find Marans to be a good meat bird eitherl

 

[desertmarcy]

Wynette, I have been thinking about your question to me: why do I feel like its a challenge to raise for sop and the homestead? I think I have a few answers. First, let me acknowledge that culling for sop works to give you birds to eat, but the output for the amount of meat to eat is where I get stuck. These birds are big boned but not big in meat output. I don't say this as someone who hasn't raised birds of a variety for meat, or who doesn't know that frankenbirds are not what I should expect of all birds. I find myself wondering if these birds are really just for their eggs and prestige? I am not poopooing them, just asking because they don't seem very 'meaty.'

I just processed one of my Blue Copper cockerels. He dressed out at 5 pounds including giblets. He has nice big legs and thighs. Breast is "ok", if someone expected Cornish cross type breast, they would be disappointed but it is not thin. He was hatched somewhere between late March and late April of this year, so 6-7 months old. Yes, I know, probably too long for a meat bird. I guess I'm saying they do get there eventually. And if raising for the SOP as well, it takes that long or longer a lot of times to figure out which are best to keep for breeders.

Edited to add I think my Blue Coppers are around the same size as my Black Coppers. Maybe a tad smaller.

 

[happyfrenchman]

I have found 6 month old roosters to be pretty gamey and tough... the crock pot for sure. I cannot keep them that long. Too many roosters cause discord plus, they are getting tougher and chewier with each passing day.

I wish I had known all this about the difference in the standards... Oh well... At this point, all I can say is "C'est la Vie"....

I knew that the Americans had adopted the French standard, but I did not know the French had changed their standard fairly recently to allow for the copper on the breast. I specifically selected my rooster because he had "parsimonious" red spotting on the breast. (just a couple that peek out from under his cape) In any case, it turns out he has other indicators of wheaten in him as well. A white foot feather and a halo in his cape that is nice looking, but definitely lighter colored than the copper color that is higher up.

My question (I have so many questions) is this... if my rooster and his hens are all from the same parents, doesn't that mean my hens also have the "wheaten" influence as well?... They pretty much look like textbook BCM hens and I have seen pictures of wheaten hens... they are beautiful, but they are totally different color birds.

If I succeed in getting a more uniformly copper colored rooster from this group, I guess the Wheaten gene would still be there, but maybe covered up by a copper gene or two..to show itself in hatchlings until it is eventually bred out?

I am not that worried about it. I did have a line on some Wade Jean line birds from Winston Ga., but that deal never materialized. I was hoping to get a rooster. I am going to try to raise up more hens, eat some more roosters, and by springtime I hope to get a dozen or so dark eggs every day. That is my chicken goal. No matter how it turns out, it has been much more of a challenge than my old Rhode Island Reds....

I enjoy reading these posts.... Thank you to all for your feedback..

 

[desertmarcy]

I have found 6 month old roosters to be pretty gamey and tough... the crock pot for sure. I cannot keep them that long. Too many roosters cause discord plus, they are getting tougher and chewier with each passing day.

It depends on how you cook them. If you brine for a day and slow cook with moisture, like a crock pot or oven bag, they are good. No 6 month old cockerel is going to be like a Cornish cross chicken. You will actually have to chew the meat instead of gum it

but they will have tons of flavor. The Marans especially are a flavorful breed.

 

[ashandvine]

Thank you for understanding my concerns. I wasn't trying to insult or disparage any ones' Marans. Really. I like the ones I have and they are shaping up about like you described Marcy. I put the last spare cockerel in a pot a couple weeks ago. I will say their breasts were better than the EO I butchered. I find that I am gradually changing what I think I 'should' see for meat out of a bird and ftr I don't think six mos is too long for a meat bird. Its a season, which makes a lot of sense up here. I think I might just be discouraged with all the little challenges I have had so far this year. This was a rough year and it might be that at the end of the year like this I look around at what I haven't done instead of what I have and don't feel like anything is enough. Despite one of my favorite judges teasing me that Marans are just sex links with hairy legs, I really do like them. I hope I didn't offend anyone.

Snow--- haven't you been going to show off those wheaten crosses for a while? Or did I miss it??

ps- did you know that in the sop for bantams they are listed as "maran" without the 's?' Its not helping me when it comes to talking shop with the judges here.