Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[Wynette]

WheatEn....not WheatOn.

I see that all the time.....like marans without an s

and

and waddles v wattles.

Agreed. And don't lets even get started on "rooster" for cockerel or cock bird.

 

[DaveEmily]

Hi,

I have had marans for a while six generations worth and counting. I keep several "lines" of BC that I have meticulously picked over and hatched from. I won't say how many but those that know me also know I don't mess around. If someone wants to get a start on the breed, my suggestion is find more than one good breeder. They don't need to show because that isn't everything. Just don't fall for the "french" title that is goofy. We are now breeding these birds to the APA standard. Well, unless you want French but then make sure you understand the differences as far as that goes. There are maybe two good lines of French birds in the US so goodluck getting your hands on some.

Whichever version you choose the breeders should be willing to show you pictures of Adults and eggs and offspring. Recent pics not ones from 2004 or "last years eggs" I personally would not buy from (or sell from) Pullets or unproven males period. They should also be willing to discuss issues they have. Really. There are no perfect lines so if you find someone selling perfect birds ask them to see their unicorn too.

While the dark eggs are the sole purpose of the breed just because you see one or two in a carton doesn't mean squat. Some of them drop a #8 one day then nothing but #3 or #4 the rest of the season. Those are junk in my opinion and need to be culled. So when you see pale eggs and are given the "oh they were laying darker when they started" line. Walk away if they aren't culling for egg color duration they aren't really culling for egg color either.

As much as some people hate the idea I would cross two lines. Sort out the funk then make the best you can from what you have. It beats inbreeding and you will be able to see things "little truths" that you might not find from linebred flocks. The kind of little things that pop up in the fifth or sixth generation like gold halos, white underfluff or "mossy' patterns....But you better get you a genetics book and READ. It can get pretty hairy. The Black Copper variety is very hard to control, it is not a cookie cutter variety at all. Especially when working with unknown traits that are not in the phenotype. You either have to learn how to make it or learn how to fake it and as much as people are gonna hate me for saying that everyone of them knows it is the truth.

What you see isn't always what you get either. Sometimes you have to take a chance. Sometimes you get lucky. Most of the time you are slightly disappointed. Just remember Marans ain't for sissies. Keep trying, find some mentors. There are a lot of nice Marans breeders willing to share and help.

But you know, that was just MY opinion.

Goodluck!

So are you saying that Marans eggs arent darker the earlier in the laying cycle and do tend to lighten as that cycle progresses ? Because that indeed has been my experience,I have rarely seen a #8 to a #3, but I do tend to see some lightening. I usually raise 200-300 pullets per year,I mean I dont know what kind of numbers you guys raise and cull or etc.,but I feel like I have seen quite a few Marans eggs over the last 12 years. While I agree that physical confirmation is important,egg color is what most people I know or have dealt with are interested in the most. While visiting family in France and throughout Europe,we have researched the birds quite a bit and visited quite a few farms there that had Marans. There they are just chickens for the most part,for the farm,for eggs,for the table. They arent Thoroughbred race horses and the French dont seem to make chicken breeding equivalent to breeding Thoroughbreds,but then again that is what we Americans tend to do.

But just to be clear i do agree with your sentiment,the truth is refreshing. Just noting I do see a lightening of the eggs over a period of time.

 

[DaveEmily]

Ok everyone, first set of questions:

1) What is wheaton? Can somebody post a picture? Perhaps I'll come across a picture in the thread, but as of page 10, I've seen it mentioned a few times and would like an idea of what it looks like (other than the chipmunk chicks).

2) What are "sports"?

3) As for the breeding. Ok...I have your basic college biology background with genetics. You know...BB + bb will give you Bb, Bb, Bb, Bb. Now, my understanding of breeding comes from my understanding of dog breeding (which is still pretty minimal). For example...I have two dogs. Both are "Boxadors"...aka labrador/boxer mixes. They both have the same appearance, with one being quite a bit larger than the other.

Now, if I were to breed one of my Boxadors to a pure boxer, the offspring would still be mixed breed. No matter how many generations I breed the offspring back to a pure Boxer, there will always be the lab genetics in the pups, yes? Or can the lab be bred out of them?

Now, with chickens, I saw mention that a certain roo might throw a Wheaton, or a Blue. Is this offspring considered a mutt then? What about the parent that threw a chick of the wrong breed? Does this indicate that the parent is not actually a pure Marans?

What about with inbreeding? Is this acceptable with chickens? Or do they need to be from different parental lines?


ETA: I found pictures of the wheaton. I'm not entirely sure how they're much different from the BCM, aside from perhaps they have more color to them?

Well genetically speaking in dogs are considered purebred at 15/16's of said breed and will breed true. Outcrosses are commonly used in dog breeds with an open stud book,to improve the genetic diversity,its most common in herding and working dogs.

 

[Wynette]

So are you saying that Marans eggs arent darker the earlier in the laying cycle and do tend to lighten as that cycle progresses ? Because that indeed has been my experience,I have rarely seen a #8 to a #3, but I do tend to see some lightening. I usually raise 200-300 pullets per year,I mean I dont know what kind of numbers you guys raise and cull or etc.,but I feel like I have seen quite a few Marans eggs over the last 12 years. While I agree that physical confirmation is important,egg color is what most people I know or have dealt with are interested in the most. While visiting family in France and throughout Europe,we have researched the birds quite a bit and visited quite a few farms there that had Marans. There they are just chickens for the most part,for the farm,for eggs,for the table. They arent Thoroughbred race horses and the French dont seem to make chicken breeding equivalent to breeding Thoroughbreds,but then again that is what we Americans tend to do.

But just to be clear i do agree with your sentiment,the truth is refreshing. Just noting I do see a lightening of the eggs over a period of time.

I think what OHmamma is speaking on (correct me if I'm wrong, OHma) is that they DO tend to lighten up, but that they should not lighten up drastically. I have been raising Marans for a good many years as well, and all layers that I have had do lighten as they go through their cycle, and also, as they age. Everyone breeds for different characteristics; I for one do not keep a hen in the breeding pen that QUICKLY lightens her egg color. By that, I mean that yes, I do expect them to lighten, but only by about one shade through the cycle. A hen that lays a #8 egg for the first 3 eggs and then lightens to a #5, even though that's within the parameters of what they should be laying, will not be kept as a breeder as that's just too much of a difference in one breeding season.

That said, I most always include an egg shell sample along with hatching egg shipment of when they were laying darker if, in fact, they are at a lighter shade in their cycles so that my customer can see the potential darkness in egg shade that the hatchlings will have.

 

[Ihilani Coffee]

WheatEn....not WheatOn.

I see that all the time.....like marans without an s

and

and waddles v wattles.

While some would not appreciate the corrections, I do. How will new people know unless someone educates them? I have a question...I tend toward Marans because the breed is named after a place in France, which is always a capitalized proper noun. What do you think? In posts sometimes I will type bbs marans and others BBS Marans. (Also, newbies and others...the "s" is silent when spoken)

 

[Ihilani Coffee]

Agreed. And don't lets even get started on "rooster" for cockerel or cock bird.

I know what's correct there Wynette...but roo is faster to type! I'll try to refrain from that here.

 

[Sweetpea3829]

Wait....we're not supposed to call them roosters???

And you don't pronounce the s in Marans, but you do include the s when writing the word. Got it.

Lots to learn...I appreciate the help and feedback and answers. I'm totally new to all of this, so I kind of expect folks to be leery to just open up and share everything, lol. But any info I can get I appreciate.

 

[DaveEmily]

I think what OHmamma is speaking on (correct me if I'm wrong, OHma) is that they DO tend to lighten up, but that they should not lighten up drastically. I have been raising Marans for a good many years as well, and all layers that I have had do lighten as they go through their cycle, and also, as they age. Everyone breeds for different characteristics; I for one do not keep a hen in the breeding pen that QUICKLY lightens her egg color. By that, I mean that yes, I do expect them to lighten, but only by about one shade through the cycle. A hen that lays a #8 egg for the first 3 eggs and then lightens to a #5, even though that's within the parameters of what they should be laying, will not be kept as a breeder as that's just too much of a difference in one breeding season.

That said, I most always include an egg shell sample along with hatching egg shipment of when they were laying darker if, in fact, they are at a lighter shade in their cycles so that my customer can see the potential darkness in egg shade that the hatchlings will have.

So Wynette it appears that you and your experiences are very much similiar to what I have experienced and posted with regard to egg color and the commonality of lightening throughout the egg cycle. Thank You !

Wynette,as you are long in the tooth in regard to Marans,have you noted the sporadic intense darkening of eggs at any point during the cycle? My experience has been that at random points in the laying cycle the eggs can darken dramatically for an average of 10 days to 3-4 weeks. There are a few things that my notes bring to mention as possible influence some of those being,climate and or climate changes, diet/nutrition, daylight hours, antibiotics, and oddly enough the moon cycle in particular the full moon phase. Any thoughts or experience with this ?

 

[upthecreek]

Quote:
roo is a lot faster (everyone knows what you mean) ............. i call mine roosters ... always have .... always will .
When it's not generic I call them what they are (cock or cockerel).

everyone know what K stands for ?

 

[Wynette]

It is just a little anal, IMHO, to get hung up over roo vs rooster. Cock and Cockerel are both ROOSTERS, the only difference being one denotes a rooster less than an year old.

That's actually not true; "back in the day" ALL chickens were referred to as roosters, because of their habit of....roosting.

Seriously, though - I personally don't mind anyone saying "rooster" in a thread that's not geared toward breeding discussions. Breed threads (such as this) are more for folks that are quite serious about breeding; most of those folks refer to them as cockerels, cock birds, or males. If YOU want to call males "roosters" that's just fine, I really could not care less, I was just giving an opinion.

ETA - also in this regard - refer to the definitions page of the SOP - you will not find "roo" or "rooster" there. Just sayin'.