Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[VillageChicken]

That's a good question Geebs. I've read in many places that the birchen allele can be selectively bred to display lacing on the entire breast. Whether this ends up producing a mossy bird with that brown mottling on the wings and back is another good question. Places where I have read about this did not say that the bird turned brown. So maybe one of the melanizing genes at work acts only on the breast and if missing or heterozygous produces chest flames. Charcoal Ch acts only an the head/hackle. Or it's possible there's one that shifts pigment out of the breast... (like Co, but everyone says it doesn't do that on ER!)

I don't remember in the 1000's of pages of forum posts if there is a direct connection between chest flames and mossy. I know copper down to the legs would likely be connected to mossy. But maybe flames is not undermelanization?? If you've got the picture, it must be something else.

 

[geebs]

The rooster may correct something in the hens... and I guess that means if they are carrying something.. (that would show up in the eyes of the females)... he hides it??? Theory... ???? Ya I think when we see a presentation that doesn't make sense..It may be pointing in one direction or another...perhaps wheaton or perhaps duckwing or black tailed buff etc...

 

[geebs]

I am wondering if it makes more sense to be a marker for black tailed buff than wheaton.... as wheaton have an all black chest...I have found that birds with the lighter eye and lighter shank that are too dark with NO color in the chest are carryers of wheaton...(that may not be the only presentation)... I just wonder what it means when they have all the melanisng factors including shank etc.. and you get red bleeding through on the chest... Do you know how black tailed buff works??? what restrictors etc rule that??? I just don't know enough about that one... I do know theoretically how to spot a co carrying at birth in a batch of babies.... I am going to prove that theory this spring and see if I can't come up with it in the reals.

 

[VillageChicken]

Exactly! Co is what separates a wheaten from blacktail buff. That and Db I think.
Co is what I've been talking about.

Here's what I found on Marans of America website:

Interestingly the Dutch Marans Standard requires a well laced breast, and hens meeting the French would be disqualified. The Dutch obtain the required lacing by the reduction of melanisers and the possible addition of the Columbian Restrictor Co to the genome.

Hmmm...​

 

[Wynette]

geebsie - I don't agree with this:

I have found that birds with the lighter eye and lighter shank that are too dark with NO color in the chest are carryers of wheaton...

Bev's line does not carry wheaten, and all my stock from her line have solid black chests, and are a bit too dark. However, they do not have light shanks. Is this something (forgive my non-genetic-self), do you think, where all 3 markers would need to be present in order for it to be true?​

 

[VillageChicken]

Yeah, blacktailed buff = wheaten + Mahogany, Db and Co.

 

[geebs]

Possibly... the lighter shank with the eyes are certainly a reason I would anticipate wheaton.... and I usually get it... I keep a couple of hens carrying different things just to rooster test... I don't have black tailed buff yet though.. I may not have know what to look for... If you can see anyway.. Possibly this strange presentation.

This bird has a black saddle with very little color... What do you make of it VC????

 

[sewandgrow]

Quote:
Gosh Jan,
You had all tose different varieties at one time? You can't even find some of them now.....At least I can't...........LOL

 

[geebs]

Yes I did... I got some genetic soup one year and I had a blast with it!!! That is why I am saying... Some of these wierd things mean something... Now VC..that makes sense... sort of... possible marker for Black tailed buff... One would have to breed with what to prove the theory on ths bird.. (or disprove)

 

[VillageChicken]

That's one possible theory. But the jury is still out on much of the science side of things as far as BCM genetics. Some BCM have the Id to produce lighter shanks, some don't. But I think all of Bev's birds DO have Id... so you're saying they don't have the pink/white shanks of a wheaten. But they don't have dark gray shanks do they? Geebs are you saying your BCs with wheaten had pale shanks or the totally pink shanks of a wheaten?

But we were not talking about the pale completely unpigmented shanks here originally... I don't think we were... just that they are not as overdark as the rest of the bird. Meaning, how can shanks, beak and eye be correct when feathering is overdark.

Geebs, blacktail buff would hatch out looking RIR-ish. Reddish yellow down, no stripes. It's not a separate allele like Wheaten, just Wheaten with 3 other modifiers thrown in, one of them Mh (all our BC's should have that) and Columbian and Darkbrown. If you hatched a BTB it would show in the chickdown.

Okay, it's been fun, gotta go now.