Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[Arielle]

All about balance.

I think I need an easy colored bird to decrease my mind strain. LOL

Ihave been keeping a journal of sorts in a word file--it's 35 pages long already.

Marty-- did you try the sanding method?? I have not had great luck with shipped FBCM eggs as I was trying to hatch before I heard of this method. Have a few eggs in now that are sanded. CM I can hatch easily; perhaps the difference in the amount of pigment--not sure.

Sanding method is posted on the first post of the Mahonry thrid annual easter hatchathon. Take the link on hatching hints and read down the page a bit. Posted by ChooksChick. Maybe it will help. If you try it, let us know.

 

[marquisella]

No argument but will state what the SOP says about most black on our chickens should have a loustrous Green sheen. What the French standard says has no bearing on the Marans in the USA that will be showed in an APA Show.

Quoting the APASOP "Black Plumage: Surface-lustrous greenish black ........Applies" and then it lists breeds, which, of course Marans, aren't listed, but then at the end it says "and others with totally black plumage." I take it then, that the Black Coppers, which are not totally black, aren't included. And I'll say again, when I've seen the greenish tint to the feathers, usually, the bird is over melanized, which, by the way, is becomming a serious problem in the black coppers, In my opinion. Not tryinng to argue either, agreed that we are in the US, but maybe should listen to what the French have experience in and learn from it.

 

[Arielle]

I have read that sometime an SOP is altered for various reasons. As it is a new breed here, is it possible that at some point in the near future to revisit the SOP for a better write up?

I do find it odd that while feathered legs were chosen over clean legs, that the french standard was not then followed ( based on the above information).

I know in horses, we also have written SOPs , the judges have a huge influence in the interpretation of the SOP. What pins becomes the current standard. So perhaps chickens are the same and breeders need to decide what interpretation is their goal. ANd while I have total respect for the judges, having spent untold numbers of hours learning their craft, I would make allowances for judges that are new to the breed or do not breed that variety. Judging is only part of our learning experience as new marans breeders. No offense intended to anyone.

 

[snowbird]

Quoting the APASOP "Black Plumage: Surface-lustrous greenish black ........Applies" and then it lists breeds, which, of course Marans, aren't listed, but then at the end it says "and others with totally black plumage." I take it then, that the Black Coppers, which are not totally black, aren't included. And I'll say again, when I've seen the greenish tint to the feathers, usually, the bird is over melanized, which, by the way, is becomming a serious problem in the black coppers, In my opinion. Not tryinng to argue either, agreed that we are in the US, but maybe should listen to what the French have experience in and learn from it.

Sue, Just saying that there are a lot of new Marans people on BYC at present and think we should not muddy the water up for them when culling their fowl. I would hate to see the young folks cull off all the Green sheen BC marans going by what the French say. The APA will never go by any other Standard says.

From what I have been told in the future any variety will have to conform to what is already approved for the APA SOP in that Variety.

We will have to go by the approved SOP for the BC and the Wheaten. Will say it is not easy to change a SOP once it is approved.

If you look at most any of the Brown red or similiar color patterns it will state lustrious Green feathers. Thats all for me.

 

[snowbird]

I have read that sometime an SOP is altered for various reasons. As it is a new breed here, is it possible that at some point in the near future to revisit the SOP for a better write up?

I do find it odd that while feathered legs were chosen over clean legs, that the french standard was not then followed ( based on the above information).

I know in horses, we also have written SOPs , the judges have a huge influence in the interpretation of the SOP. What pins becomes the current standard. So perhaps chickens are the same and breeders need to decide what interpretation is their goal. ANd while I have total respect for the judges, having spent untold numbers of hours learning their craft, I would make allowances for judges that are new to the breed or do not breed that variety. Judging is only part of our learning experience as new marans breeders. No offense intended to anyone.

Arielle, If the French standard had of been went by the BC would of had to go in as Brown Red and they would not conform to that because you have three color patterns going on with the males Straw, Black Copper and Mahogany.

Breeders can decide what direction they would like to breed, but if they want to show in APA sanctions they will have to use the USA standard.

 

[snowbird]

I would suggest if anyone really wants an official answer about ask Walt or Bill to comment.

 

[Arielle]

Arielle, If the French standard had of been went by the BC would of had to go in as Brown Red and they would not conform to that because you have three color patterns going on with the males Straw, Black Copper and Mahogany.

Breeders can decide what direction they would like to breed, but if they want to show in APA sanctions they will have to use the USA standard.

Don, how did our birds get the 3 color patterns going if the French standard only has Brown Red ?

I think what I was trying to convey is that even with an SOP there seems to be some variety between established lines yet all are striving for the SOP standard. Now I'm quoting others here that lines look a little diffI erent, but having worked with horses and sheep know that individual breeders develop lines that don't look exactly like anothers line, hence interpretation of the SOP. And all are good enough to compete at sanctioned shows. Not sure I have conveyed my thought any better.

 

[gilavina]

Sue, Just saying that there are a lot of new Marans people on BYC at present and think we should not muddy the water up for them when culling their fowl. I would hate to see the young folks cull off all the Green sheen BC marans going by what the French say. The APA will never go by any other Standard says.

From what I have been told in the future any variety will have to conform to what is already approved for the APA SOP in that Variety.

We will have to go by the approved SOP for the BC and the Wheaten. Will say it is not easy to change a SOP once it is approved.

If you look at most any of the Brown red or similiar color patterns it will state lustrious Green feathers. Thats all for me.

Good word Don. I understand where the thought process is coming from to breed with birds that are matte in color, but it really is possible to breed birds that have a lustrous green sheen and nice coppering as well. The hardest part with the Marans being so new is that there is not a nice consistent base already laid out for us, and for as many people that raise them, is probably how many differing breeding strategies that are out there. Will say tho, there really is nothing like looking at a nice brown red or black copper that has the green sheen. I've posted one of my prospects from this year's hatch over on the regular Marans thread, but will post again, since he is a good example of having nice even coppering and a beetle green sheen at the same time.

 

[Arielle]

Gilivania, since you posted such a lovely boy, can you tell me which hackle color he has? Is this black copper or mahogany?

Love his beetle green sheen. I have a muscovy that is half beetle green and half purple. A great way to see the colors together.

 

[gilavina]

Gilivania, since you posted such a lovely boy, can you tell me which hackle color he has? Is this black copper or mahogany?

Love his beetle green sheen. I have a muscovy that is half beetle green and half purple. A great way to see the colors together.

To me this is definitely not mahogany, its a nice true copper. Mahogany will have a deeper, almost russet red color to it, with much less contrast to the black on the body. I don't know if I have any pics here of birds with mahogany, I get mostly birds in the middle range versus straw or mahogany. I'll have to look