Black Copper Marans discussion thread
- Thread starter geebs
- Start date
I would love to go to the Nationals just to finally see some nice Marans. The show that went to didnt have any. I wouldnt mind taking my roo down there to get destroyed by the competition but it would be fun!I KNOW how much we have to look forward to after having done one of these seminars with Troy Laroche here in Canada. There is SO much to learn. And thank you, Walt, for being brave enough to do this for us with Pete.
Will you be at Nationals next weekend in Ohio? I assume so ... ?
I KNOW how much we have to look forward to after having done one of these seminars with Troy Laroche here in Canada. There is SO much to learn. And thank you, Walt, for being brave enough to do this for us with Pete.
Will you be at Nationals next weekend in Ohio? I assume so ... ?
I will miss that show. I love going to Lucasville, but I have a show here that weekend.
Walt
Finally caught up--look at all the good that can come out of a good discussion! We don't have to agree on every point to learn from each other.
THese I will print out and laminate.
I should have done that the first time; I did put a copy in my marans file.
THese I will print out and laminate.
Last edited:
I bought this guy from a local person on Craigslist, mostly because I want to make some olive-eggers. I don't know much about Marans, but am reading up on the breed now. The roo, Chewy, is maybe a year old, and very friendly. His ladies like him and he's very protective. My flocks are turned out to forage during teh day, so that's important.
But in terms of him being a black copper, having a red breast is all wrong? His legs are mostly dark grey in front, but paler on the back side. When he's worked up about something I can see a red flush on the backs of his legs. His tails feathers are just now really coming in and seem well placed.
But in terms of him being a black copper, having a red breast is all wrong? His legs are mostly dark grey in front, but paler on the back side. When he's worked up about something I can see a red flush on the backs of his legs. His tails feathers are just now really coming in and seem well placed.
HE looks like a marans. I have a rooster that has a lot of red on his breast and all the way down his legs to his hocks; yet brothers from the same hatch fit the SOP better colorwise. Using your Chewy for OE breeding is just fine, I use mine for OE too. Afterall we are going for egg color, not SOP. Pretty picture, his red shows up on the vivid green field very nicely.
Folks, I just posted this on the main Marans thread, but since it pertains to Black Copper, I thought I'd post here as well:
The whole shank thing, as well as the white undercolor, has really, really been bugging me. I reached out to Roger Woo, who has a keen genetic expertise to ask him his thoughts on dark slate/slate/slate over pink for the Black Copper Marans. Here is Roger's reply. I'll also post in the Black Copper thread for folks who may not read over here:
Hi Wynette,
About pink in the shanks: I find that all my cock birds when they are in full breeding mode - around hens and actively mating - will have significant pink to almost red on the shanks. I believe it is hormonal, and have read somewhere that this is the case.
That your BC [Black Copper] have enough un-melanized skin on their shanks to allow this to show through is more correct as I understand the standard. There are a lot of things that contribute to shank color, but on BC the primary gene is the sex-linked id+ dermal melanin inhibitor gene that keeps melanin out of the skin and shanks. In its dominant form Id, it inhibits, the id+ is the unmutated form as found in the red jungle fowl, and allows green or slate shanks depending on whether skin is white or yellow.
I have seen a lot of really dark shanked males in the past on BYC. Because of hormone activity, the hens are more easily melanized, and it is difficult to determine if they are id or Id. But using an Id/Id rooster ensures 100% Id hens because of the sex linkage. An Id/id rooster would hide the genes for dark shanks, and produce hens that essentially look alike though some will be Id and some id. The Blue gene also makes it harder to determine if a hen has the Id gene. This is why it is essential to determine if your rooster is Id or not. The pink in the shanks is a very good indicator. Some shy away from the pale shanks because they fear it is "wheaten influence" though it is the wheaten allele itself that prevents dark shanks, and if your BC are not throwing wheatens, then it is not from any possible wheaten genes. In fact because the wheaten allele itself inhibits melanization, any crosses with BC would potentially introduce the dark shank version of the id+ gene since wheatens can have clear shanks without the Id gene. Confusing, I know, but essentially it means that light shanks would not usually mean wheaten genes in a BC.
Most of the BC males I have seen from Germany have the pale shanks with dark pink between the toes and running up the inside. I would say they are pale gray with some darker scales, but not anywhere near slate. I think because so many folks had lines and flocks they had worked so many years on, prior to the standard being written, there was much debate about what the U.S. standard would be. In the end I think there was a bit of an ambiguous compromise that left things open to interpretation, with "pale slate", though anything pale on a rooster is likely to show the pink or dark pink depending on the male's hormone activity.
Interesting stuff, eh?
The whole shank thing, as well as the white undercolor, has really, really been bugging me. I reached out to Roger Woo, who has a keen genetic expertise to ask him his thoughts on dark slate/slate/slate over pink for the Black Copper Marans. Here is Roger's reply. I'll also post in the Black Copper thread for folks who may not read over here:
Hi Wynette,
About pink in the shanks: I find that all my cock birds when they are in full breeding mode - around hens and actively mating - will have significant pink to almost red on the shanks. I believe it is hormonal, and have read somewhere that this is the case.
That your BC [Black Copper] have enough un-melanized skin on their shanks to allow this to show through is more correct as I understand the standard. There are a lot of things that contribute to shank color, but on BC the primary gene is the sex-linked id+ dermal melanin inhibitor gene that keeps melanin out of the skin and shanks. In its dominant form Id, it inhibits, the id+ is the unmutated form as found in the red jungle fowl, and allows green or slate shanks depending on whether skin is white or yellow.
I have seen a lot of really dark shanked males in the past on BYC. Because of hormone activity, the hens are more easily melanized, and it is difficult to determine if they are id or Id. But using an Id/Id rooster ensures 100% Id hens because of the sex linkage. An Id/id rooster would hide the genes for dark shanks, and produce hens that essentially look alike though some will be Id and some id. The Blue gene also makes it harder to determine if a hen has the Id gene. This is why it is essential to determine if your rooster is Id or not. The pink in the shanks is a very good indicator. Some shy away from the pale shanks because they fear it is "wheaten influence" though it is the wheaten allele itself that prevents dark shanks, and if your BC are not throwing wheatens, then it is not from any possible wheaten genes. In fact because the wheaten allele itself inhibits melanization, any crosses with BC would potentially introduce the dark shank version of the id+ gene since wheatens can have clear shanks without the Id gene. Confusing, I know, but essentially it means that light shanks would not usually mean wheaten genes in a BC.
Most of the BC males I have seen from Germany have the pale shanks with dark pink between the toes and running up the inside. I would say they are pale gray with some darker scales, but not anywhere near slate. I think because so many folks had lines and flocks they had worked so many years on, prior to the standard being written, there was much debate about what the U.S. standard would be. In the end I think there was a bit of an ambiguous compromise that left things open to interpretation, with "pale slate", though anything pale on a rooster is likely to show the pink or dark pink depending on the male's hormone activity.
Interesting stuff, eh?
THank you WYnette!!!!
I have been struggling with red on my boys, thinking they suffered a disease. THey had become very reddened-- during the spring, it was at it's worst. Totally relieved that all is well. 100 thank you.
I have been struggling with red on my boys, thinking they suffered a disease. THey had become very reddened-- during the spring, it was at it's worst. Totally relieved that all is well. 100 thank you.
He's a beautiful guy, and filling out nicely. Eventually I want to work on conformation in my future Oliver's, so that should help. If he was SOP perfect, I'd feel obligated to get into breeding BCMs too. Whew!
I've bred heritage chickens over the years, but am now looking forward to playing around with egg color.
The genetics lessons are fascinating though, and I think I'll invest in the chicken color genetics book out of the Netherlands.
I enjoy collecting the eggs!! So many different colors and hues. Enjoy.
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