Black silkies

[littlecritters]

There's an article on breeding blacks in the latest edition of Exhibition Poultry. If you click on the Aug 2012 link, it will take you to the PDF version.  http://www.exhibitionpoultry.net/

You can also go back to the first couple pages of this thread.  Breeding blacks isn't as simple as it seems.  There are at least 5 different bases for it with different melanizers affecting each.  I personally stay away from the black on blue matings because its hard to determine which offspring are black versus just a dark blue.  The brown undertone is often seen with birds in need of a molt.  The coal blacks are often just dark blues or poorly melanized blacks.  

Thanks for your reply. I have actually read the article which has created more questions on my part. I find genetics very confusing for some reason. When seeking quality foundation stock, are there any specific questions I should ask breeders about their line?

 

[howfunkyisurchicken]

What a fantastic set up you have! I'd be in trouble if I had that kind of space! Hope y'all don't mind me hopping in on your thread- I technically don't have any black Silkies yet but I hope to! I have one black egg cooking in the bator currently (along with a porcelain and mystery color) and I'm REALLY hoping it hatches

you all have beautiful birds, by the way!

I posted this and forgot to update! My black Silkie egg did hatch, but I'm not as happy with the little chick as I thought I'd be

Right after hatch, I noticed the tips of all it's toes are pink-its shanks, skin and beak are the blackest black I've ever seen so I thought maybe the toes would darken but they haven't. The next thing, when it's wing feathers started coming in, one feather on each wing was white. No big deal I thought, they'll molt out and come back black.......well, this chick is somewhere around a month old now and it's still got white feathers in it's wings. I hatched another black egg from the same breeder I got this egg from, and its completely perfectly black (it came from the same pen, same birds. She has 1 roo and 1 hen). So, is there a chance that those white feathers will go away or are they there to stay? And I'm also guessing if they toes were going to darken, they'd have done it by now?

 

[destiny_56085]

little critters - Each particular line has their own quirks. You have to talk to the individual breeder how about what their birds throw. First thing I'd ask is how long they have been breeding and if they can show you examples of what they have produced. You have tons of rookie breeders out there just throwing birds together and selling eggs right away. They have no idea of what they are even getting half the time. Ask what they are using for their breeder stock. If you want a true black pen, I'd steer clear of any of the lavendar splits and anything that cropped out of a paint breeding. If you get some blacks from a BBS pen, test them on a splash first to make sure they only throw 100% blues. Its the only way to know you definitely have a black and not a dark blue. Lastly you have to do alot of test breedings when you get birds. Some pairings work and others don't.

 

[littlecritters]

little critters - Each particular line has their own quirks.  You have to talk to the individual breeder how about what their birds throw.  First thing I'd ask is how long they have been breeding and if they can show you examples of what they have produced.  You have tons of rookie breeders out there just throwing birds together and selling eggs right away.  They have no idea of what they are even getting half the time.  Ask what they are using for their breeder stock.  If you want a true black pen, I'd steer clear of any of the lavendar splits and anything that cropped out of a paint breeding.  If you get some blacks from a BBS pen, test them on a splash first to make sure they only throw 100% blues.  Its the only way to know you definitely have a black and not a dark blue.  Lastly you have to do alot of test breedings when you get birds.  Some pairings work and others don't.

Thanks for the excellent advice! Very helpful and practical also...

 

[championsumatra]

I love silkies I have a black silky bantam.

 

[moomoodiddy]

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[Feathersprings]

little critters - Each particular line has their own quirks. You have to talk to the individual breeder how about what their birds throw. First thing I'd ask is how long they have been breeding and if they can show you examples of what they have produced. You have tons of rookie breeders out there just throwing birds together and selling eggs right away. They have no idea of what they are even getting half the time. Ask what they are using for their breeder stock. If you want a true black pen, I'd steer clear of any of the lavendar splits and anything that cropped out of a paint breeding. If you get some blacks from a BBS pen, test them on a splash first to make sure they only throw 100% blues. Its the only way to know you definitely have a black and not a dark blue. Lastly you have to do alot of test breedings when you get birds. Some pairings work and others don't.

I just found this thread and am trying to get through it. I am wanting a black breeding pen and am just getting started into Silkies again. I am getting a nice Black Cockerel from a BBS. Beautiful type and have a pretty black pullet from a black breeding pen. I am also getting a beautiful blue pullet. I am planning to breed the black and blue and use the blacks from there and the black pullet to start my black pen. I do understand about the possibility of mistaking dark blue for black and the quality of one color over the other issue but am having problems understanding why you might have a "lighter" black from a blue/black breeding. Are they getting some other genetic material ( obviously not the blue gene) from the blue that affects the coloring ? I know there are several different genetic differences in the black color but my understanding was that they are just differences in black and not from coming from a blue parent. I thought that the only difference in the blue and black color was the addition of the gene that dilutes the black to blue. I had some black lav splits and some blacks from paints which have been sold because those arent colors I have decided to breed. I hope to understand the genetics of this color better after a while

 

[destiny_56085]

Ok Feathersprings.... First of all let's go back to the basics.

There are several types of blacks in silkies, all of which are determined by the E gene.
The alleles (variations) in order of dominance are:
1. E (extended black) - applies to most of black birds; needs least amount of help from other genes/melanizers to make a black bird
2. E^R (birchen) - needs help from black extenders to make a black bird; creates a bird with pheomelanin on the head, hackles, shoulder, saddle and breast feathers; birchen-based birds do not have pheomelanin on their secondaries (wing triangle)
3. E^Wh (wheaten) - dominance can vary and behave as a recessive under certain circumstances
4. e+ (wild-type)
5. e^b (brown or partridge)

Now think of all the melanizers and extenders needed to make a black bird.... Why is a sumatra so deep dark jet black compared to something like a black star? Its been bred and culled for many years to get to that point. It has the right genetics behind it to do so. Ok now let's go to silkies. Bearded black was admitted to the APA standard in 1965 (NB in 1996). Bearded blue was first admitted in 1996 and splash in 2000. Some other breed had to be added in there somewhere to get this color in silkies...cochins, polish, whatever. There is still alot of years in between there and to bring those new colors up to standard takes time. Blacks have been around to work with longer... This is not even to mention how many people used the blacks and blues especially in the late 1990's when they were following the lavendar craze and now in the paint craze. I think somewhere in there and with all the focus on those fads, that alot of blacks were wrecked in the process. Type went downhill and people started to use anything 'black' just to cross in and get the cool colors. I think somewhere in that jumble, at least some/most of those melanizers & extenders were lost. Its only within the last few years where I'm hearing about the 'bad/poor blacks'. Now if you go talk to any other exhibition breeder of like orps, wyndottes, etc, those 'bad blacks' would never make it beyond the baby pen. They get eaten or culled to the burn barrel. Silkies are a bit different and everyone wants them for pets regardless if they meet the standard or not. These pets lay eggs and of course they are cute not to hatch more...and thus the problem perpetuates.

Ok now coming from my own breeding pens... I have blacks only in pens and expect 100% blacks out of there. If I get a weird partridge cropout or any of the poor blacks, they get culled either to a pet home or Asian cuisine. Now I've heard that certain areas of the US have nice blue & splash floating around. Now up here I haven't seen anything yet that compares in body type or feather quality. It just doesn't make any sense to me to add in blues and take a step down on the 2 most important features of this breed. Now I have seen some of my birds crossed on some of these nicer blue/splash in hopes of getting better blues and it HAS worked. But would I put any of those babies back in my pure black pen, NO. Without doing a test breeding to splash, I have no set in stone guarantee that those dark birds are not really just dark blues. Also they carry the genes of the inferior blue/splash. Now if you are just starting out and the blue is the best bird you can come up with, then you use what you have and work your way up. I'm also just not patient enough to raise a bird for 10+ months til they lay, test on a splash, and incubate for 3 weeks to just see if I really have a black/blue.

 

[Feathersprings]

Ok Feathersprings.... First of all let's go back to the basics.

Thank you for all the information. It was very helpful and will help me figure out just how I am going to proceed.

 

[destiny_56085]

Ok now look a little closer at that list of black alleles. Where do most blue birds have the dark color? the head, hackles, shoulder, saddle and breast feathers

Here's a pretty good example of a blue I used to have.



Now look at that and go back and reread the description for the birchen base. E^R (birchen) - needs help from black extenders to make a black bird . Now go back and think about those poor blacks from blues.... Get a birchen based black with not enough black extenders and I'm sure you would have an easy route for those poor blacks. Makes for nice looking blues, but the blacks resulting from it are not going to be that gorgeous jet black all the time.