Blue or Black??

[BGMatt]

I agree she has nice coloring. I guess I was a little misspoken. It is possible that a black out of all black line may improve lacing, however that is not incompatible with what I said, perhaps the black australorp either as a breed or the specific line you used had the lacing gene under the black. Not all black birds do. Just from experience across lots of different breeds. I have seen messed up blue rock bantams and blue old english game in that manner years ago.

Edit: and this is why I said there's a million different opinions on how to breed blue for the best results. Different experiences all around.

Edit 2: and of course to go with the first part of the post: the reason I recommended using black out of blue matings is so you are guaranteed that the lacing gene is there.

 

[my sunwolf]

I appreciate the help from you both, it's always interesting when there are quite a few different ways to get breeding results!

It makes sense that Black birds out of matings with nice Blue laced birds will carry the gene for more defined lacing. I just always hear that using a Black bird from a Blue mating enough times will start to screw up your Black birds. Maybe that's something that a breeder can preserve if they pay attention. Or maybe it doesn't matter since, really, the point is to breed Blues.

Though I have to say, it would be nice to use some nice quality Black birds over my Splash girls just to inject some other genetics into there and maybe work a little on conformation--I am just assuming here that it's bad, though they are not anywhere close to being fully grown so I'm having trouble telling.

While I don't believe it is the Ameraucana standard, the Andalusian lacing is incredible. This is what I mean:



Any hope (or should I hope) to breed Ameraucanas this way? Is this not done for the reason that the Extended Black gene works differently in Ameraucanas? Or that the standard is not interested in high contrast lacing?

Love this discussion on variations of Blue, thank you sometimes it's hard to wade through old threads.

 

[CB and CG]

When breeding black to blue you do not need the pattern gene in the black because the blue has it. The black provides the dark colour that the blue re arranges into crisp lacing. Black is not their to provide the pattern gene just the dark colour that the blue gene uses to arrange the colour into separate lacing and ground colour. If blacks had a pattern gene they would to be black.
In regards to blue stuffing up your blacks. This is true to an extent. If you breed blue to black for multiple generations using blacks that were bred using blues, you will mess up the sheen. It is okay to do it occasionally but over consistent generations the sheen on your blacks will be lost completely in some birds and others will have a purple sheen which is a fault. My breeding structure works quite well. I breed with a black rooster and blue and black hens. This way I am getting blues with crisp lacing and blacks with a lovely green sheen. There is a small percentage of blacks bred from blues but they all have a green sheen and still fine to use for a couple generations or to sell. My best black hen is from a pure line of blues line bred for 20 years by the same breeder. She has a great green sheen and because I am breeding her with a black roo, she will produce great blacks. If I mated her with a blue roo it might be a different story.
Think of blue as a diluting gene. When mated to black you get darker shades with crisp lacing. When mated to blue you get an array of good and bad results. When mated to splash you get very light blues with undefined lacing. Some standards like the blue australorp standard requires defined lacing. Some breeds like the Aussie game standards requires undefined, little to no lacing in their blues. Hope this was informative. I post a pic of a blue to blue mating if you like.

 

[BGMatt]

All blue birds should display the lacing of the Andalusian. (At least according to the American standards. I don't know nor care about elsewhere).

Yes blue carries the pattern gene so in theory it doesn't matter if the black does or not. In practice you will find that it does. If the black is hiding another pattern then it won't be as clean. Experience is the best teacher here, I can tell by your terminology you're still new.

I have not found any negative effect on black, but then again this thread is about blue, so even if the black color and sheen was affected it doesn't matter. You are right that splash to blue generally does not give good lacing, not sure why. The best medium blue shade that the standards call for does come from splash to black in every breed I have ever had blue in (7 breeds) but if you use a black that doesn't carry pattern gene it doesn't have the lacing where you want it. Blue to black as in the previous picture does well with lacing most the time but the shade of blue, as in picture is usually a shade or two dark (see Andalusian picture for correct shade of blue), while blue to blue is inconsistent but as I noted previously is fastest way to set your really nice lacing.

 

[BGMatt]

Heartmoss, I skipped over where you mentioned using nice blacks in your line, that's not a bad idea. Remember, color is easy to fix. Type is the first thing and most important thing as always. I'm sure you've heard the saying "you have to build the barn before you paint it"? If you're unhappy with size and type on blues then by all means bring in the best blacks you can. It can't hurt and the color will be fine, an can be further refined down the road.

 

[my sunwolf]

Thank you again BGMatt. I always have to remember that saying about the barn as I tend to get caught up in color. I am most definitely new to breeding in general. I've only ever bred Easter Eggers, and they don't have an official standard to work towards. Slowly slowly slowly learning Ameraucana type. Even young I can tell this batch is going to be a bit underweight, though their conformation is okay.

I love hearing from people who know so much about breeding!

 

[BGMatt]

They're a fun breed. I loved mine when I had them. They were a casualty of one of my moves. Maybe someday again.