I know horse breeders use the "Let the sire of the sire be the grandsire of the dam" - but that would mean keeping two lines for sure- which in Delawares, at least, seems like a good idea.
Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread
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WHAT IS IN-BREEDING. The A.B.C. of Breeding Poultry for Exhibition, Egg-Production and Table Purposes
1919
Novices are apt to be misled by the term " in-breed." To
serve as an illustration I will deal with " in-breeding " and then
" Line-breeding." In-breeding generally speaking is the mating of
brother and sister and is not to be recommended. Many fanciers
do in-breed I know, but whilst this mating of brother and sister is
likely to breed progeny possessing the qualities of each other,
disease can easily follow in its train. This is amply proved if we
mate a laying hen to her brother, for the result will more often
than not be fewer eggs from the progeny. If we continue the inbreeding
the next generation would be puny things and very inferior
layers. The same applies to in-breeding in exhibition birds ; if it is
practiced it must not be overdone, but on the other hand kept well
in check. To in-breed once in a way may be the means of fixing
a certain quality that the breeder could not obtain from any other
mating. All the other excellent points were in his birds with the
exception of the one for which he in-bred. This as I have said
may be all right within reason, but should not be encouraged too
much. In such cases make sure that the birds being mated up
are vigorous and healthy in every organ and limb ; this will assist
matters.
THREE WAYS OF IN-BREEDING. The A.B.C. of Breeding Poultry for Exhibition, Egg-Production and Table Purposes
1919
" In-breeding," says Mr. Harry R. Lewis" commonly means
the mating of individuals related for one generation. In-and-in
breeding indicates those showing a longer period and closer degree
of relationship. Three ways of in-breeding are:--
In-breeding chart showing distribution of inherited 'characters. The black
denotes the blood lines of the male and the white those of the female. The
solid black lines show that a male has been chosen from the group from
which they start and the dotted lines a female
X-Male. O-Female.
1. Breeding sire and daughter which produces ¼
blood like the mother.
2. Breeding son and mother which produces progeny
with ¾ blood of the mother.
3. Breeding brother and sister which gives progeny with
blood lines from both sire and dam in equal proportions.
The latter (No. 3) is the mating referred to above as
undesirable. It is often adopted by breeders of both
Fancy stock and heavy egg-producers, but it must
not be over done. He must be sure of the vigour of
the parent stock, else this fault will be intensified in
the progeny.
Chris
Novices are apt to be misled by the term " in-breed." To
serve as an illustration I will deal with " in-breeding " and then
" Line-breeding." In-breeding generally speaking is the mating of
brother and sister and is not to be recommended. Many fanciers
do in-breed I know, but whilst this mating of brother and sister is
likely to breed progeny possessing the qualities of each other,
disease can easily follow in its train. This is amply proved if we
mate a laying hen to her brother, for the result will more often
than not be fewer eggs from the progeny. If we continue the inbreeding
the next generation would be puny things and very inferior
layers. The same applies to in-breeding in exhibition birds ; if it is
practiced it must not be overdone, but on the other hand kept well
in check. To in-breed once in a way may be the means of fixing
a certain quality that the breeder could not obtain from any other
mating. All the other excellent points were in his birds with the
exception of the one for which he in-bred. This as I have said
may be all right within reason, but should not be encouraged too
much. In such cases make sure that the birds being mated up
are vigorous and healthy in every organ and limb ; this will assist
matters.
THREE WAYS OF IN-BREEDING. The A.B.C. of Breeding Poultry for Exhibition, Egg-Production and Table Purposes
" In-breeding," says Mr. Harry R. Lewis" commonly means
the mating of individuals related for one generation. In-and-in
breeding indicates those showing a longer period and closer degree
of relationship. Three ways of in-breeding are:--
In-breeding chart showing distribution of inherited 'characters. The black
denotes the blood lines of the male and the white those of the female. The
solid black lines show that a male has been chosen from the group from
which they start and the dotted lines a female
X-Male. O-Female.
1. Breeding sire and daughter which produces ¼
blood like the mother.
2. Breeding son and mother which produces progeny
with ¾ blood of the mother.
3. Breeding brother and sister which gives progeny with
blood lines from both sire and dam in equal proportions.
The latter (No. 3) is the mating referred to above as
undesirable. It is often adopted by breeders of both
Fancy stock and heavy egg-producers, but it must
not be over done. He must be sure of the vigour of
the parent stock, else this fault will be intensified in
the progeny.
Chris
Quote:
Intensive inbreeding will also concentrate the bad recessive genes and it is not a bad idea to every four or five generations go to a totally unrelated line to help eliminate some of these less desired traits. It is like 5 steps forward then 2 steps back. But, you will get rid of the recessive triats you don't want.
Much like how they did it with creating the German Shepherd dogs.
Much like how they did it with creating the German Shepherd dogs.
Quote:
Good job! I will add that the first male has a body like a RIR, but is leaning back to the rear. Could just be the way it is standing. Last two appear to be brassy (yellow) in the wing and saddle feathers. None are anywhere near as deep in the abdomen as they should be. There is no round underline and they look old enough to show that.
Walt
Good job! I will add that the first male has a body like a RIR, but is leaning back to the rear. Could just be the way it is standing. Last two appear to be brassy (yellow) in the wing and saddle feathers. None are anywhere near as deep in the abdomen as they should be. There is no round underline and they look old enough to show that.
Walt
Quote:
I dont know enough to help you very much, but I can tell you I have read enough from the experts to know you will get in a lot more trouble with out crossing than you will if you stay to close genetics. Read and ask the wise one's and don't assume that close breeding is going to hurt you.
I have given some birds to close friends that I trust will continue with the genetics that I have and if I need to loosen up a bit I can go get something from them that is same line or strain but not daughter, brother etc.
Keep asking dont assume is my only advise
All I can tell you is I've line-bred a strain of Rhode Island Red Bantams for going on 25 years. The females still lay well & my fertility is about 95 % with hatchability being nearly that high. I follow a simple fathrt/daughter, mother/son breeding plan with occassional crosses between the two "families" I keep within this strain.
.
This is what I have done for years and I believe is done by most serious poultry breeders. It is the only way I know of to create birds that look alike. When I judge I can sometimes pick out whose strain the birds are just by some of the genetic imprints I see on the birds. This is the result of their breeding in a consistent way. I have had negative comments about this form of breeding on here, but they come from people who have really never done anything important with chickens. In my other hobby (motorsports) we call them armchair racers.....they have never driven a race car, but claim to know all about it because they read about in a book put out by an "expert". The strange thing is......I don't know any successful poultry breeders who call themselves "Experts".
Walt
I dont know enough to help you very much, but I can tell you I have read enough from the experts to know you will get in a lot more trouble with out crossing than you will if you stay to close genetics. Read and ask the wise one's and don't assume that close breeding is going to hurt you.
I have given some birds to close friends that I trust will continue with the genetics that I have and if I need to loosen up a bit I can go get something from them that is same line or strain but not daughter, brother etc.
Keep asking dont assume is my only advise
All I can tell you is I've line-bred a strain of Rhode Island Red Bantams for going on 25 years. The females still lay well & my fertility is about 95 % with hatchability being nearly that high. I follow a simple fathrt/daughter, mother/son breeding plan with occassional crosses between the two "families" I keep within this strain.
.
This is what I have done for years and I believe is done by most serious poultry breeders. It is the only way I know of to create birds that look alike. When I judge I can sometimes pick out whose strain the birds are just by some of the genetic imprints I see on the birds. This is the result of their breeding in a consistent way. I have had negative comments about this form of breeding on here, but they come from people who have really never done anything important with chickens. In my other hobby (motorsports) we call them armchair racers.....they have never driven a race car, but claim to know all about it because they read about in a book put out by an "expert". The strange thing is......I don't know any successful poultry breeders who call themselves "Experts".
Walt
Inbreeding or line breeding is not done just with livestock. Line breeding was how the German Shepherd Dogs foundation stock was started. An excellent fews articles about my favorite Old School GSD, Beowulf. He sired 107 litters 300 plue progeny. And alot was daughter back to Beowulf. We can thank that method for us who love this breed of dog. And most who have fits today with this style of breeding need to read up on articles like that. And MAYBE they will get the idea. You still will be doubling up on some bad recessive traits. And eventually you will need to go out of the family to clear some of thos traits out. But, it is the way it has been done for at least a century. And I can imagine back a hundred years ago someone was talking about how the Old timers did it. And it was done this way. That is why their are several hundred unique breeds of dogs, and chickens.
Thanks Beth and Walt for the guidance with the Delaware roos. I am in need of more stock so I have some options to beed with. My pullets (I have3) are not that great. I have 2 that have the columbian coloring and 1 that has decent color. So I guess for now I will work with my #1 roo and the decent colored hen. I don't really like her conformation but I have no other options at this point, till I get something else to breed to. Here are my pullets.
I have 2 that look like this...
This is the one hen that has the ok coloring, in one picture she is with one of the other hen for compairison. Sorry the pictures wouldn't stay turned for some reason~
I have 2 that look like this...
This is the one hen that has the ok coloring, in one picture she is with one of the other hen for compairison. Sorry the pictures wouldn't stay turned for some reason~
Tacey, a lot of us are "starting where we are with what we have" - but we will sure help you get some more chicks/eggs/ or whatever you need! You might take a chance on the best bodied of the Columbian marked ones if you have one with a good body, to see if you get something with a good body and more correct markings. It all just seems to be such a crap shoot. The more I read about what people post about smut and the influence of the NH and other things, the more I think the Columbian markings are always going to crop up in these birds. My messy hen and my too light roo produced a pullet with better hackle markings than the hen and at this point she looks like she could be fairly nice. But that is just a hopeful guess for you - the great experiment is on!
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- #1,070
Robert Blosl
Rest in Peace 1947-2013
I just got done this moarning having my chickens and ducks tested and the lady has been coming to my place in October for four years. She test chickens and other poultry all over the state and has a good eye for chickens even though she sticks mostly hatchery chicken and commercial poultry farms.
When we started sticking my Rhode Island Red bantam males she said boy he sure has a even width of back. I pulled his wings back and it looked like a small 2x4 about three inches wide even from the wing joints to the oil gland. She said it looks like your quill color is getting darker. Boy I said you remember that from last year. Yes she said. Then she said I see that you got black spurs on your young males. I then asked her do you remember where that trait came from. She said from the large fowl that you crossed onto your bantams twenty years ago. I said correct. As we got one male after another every male had black nubs coming out of their legs then I reached in and grabbed the four year old cock bird. Boy she said he sure has black spurs and I told her he is the one that started this trait. I am going to mate the two females from Arkansas back onto him and then mate these daughters back to Black Spurs his son for two more years. She then said boy you sure fixed this trait on these Reds. Is this line breeding she said? Yes it is I told her.
Then we went to the White Leghorn Bantam females I had six washed up and ready to show. I grabbed one and she said is this a pullet? I said yes. She said last year you where hoping for pullets to start loping their combs after they started laying and she is loping. I said to myself this lady must have written down these notes boy what a memory. Yes I said. She and another pullet are loping and next breeding seasons I am going to use the two best pullets with loped combs to increase this trait as hens they should flop over just like the standard illustrates.
Next we went to the Gray Call pens need four ducks to stick she said. Boy looks at the neck on that female. You are getting the bull neck look after four years arent you. I said to myself boy this lady is on target with what I am doing. She then said their legs are getting shorter and the bills look shorter. What happen to the little drake with the crippled leg? I said I forgot about him one night when I was working and he stayed in the egg after he piped for about 24 hours and his leg was deformed because he could not get out. His legs where too short and his bill was too short he couldnt get out on his own. He is the best duck of the year. She said he sure did not have problems in the water tub swimming. No he just has trouble on the wire walking but I will breed him to a special female two years from now. Why do you have to wait? I just dont have the female yet that I want to breed to him, but she will show up I just know it.
She said I sure enjoy coming way down here to stick your birds I see improvement each year from your breeding. Maybe thats what its all about I said. There are a few of us who are called breeders and always learning we are not experts just students of the craft. Then she asked me what you are doing with this caliper. O I said I am measuring the width of the bills and the length of the bills and writing them down in a log book. You are breeding in one eights or one thirty seconds per year. Yes it is a slow process one eight of a inch per year. I dont really need that thing I can tell by my eye but I want to be correct in my judgment. I then told her look at these little drakes, look at the female color of their feathers as they lose this color and go into the male silver color. This little drake has the best female color I have ever seen on a hen or a drake. I think this is how you improve your female color by using drakes that had this nice female color at a young age of say three months. That is why I am going to have to wait for a female that has the bull neck type and great color and I will inbreed this female for three years to this young little drake. That will get me the female color I want.
So in my little story today with my Poultry inspector can you see how you sometimes cannot use a chart to do your breeding? You have to use your gut and your inner eye. If I went by charts before I breed up or breed down my bantams I would never had gotten to this level with the chart. Like NY Reds said he has been breeding in a closed family for thirty years. The breeder who he got his bantams from did the same for 30 to 50 years Ken Bowles the Father of the New Hampshire large fowl and bantams. So dont worry about getting no fertility I think the number one cause in this fault or bug a boo is loose feathering and poor egg production. If you have early development and fast feathering you will not have a issue with fertility or hatching and will not need new fresh blood. You got to skim the bad traits off the top of the pot each year and fix the good traits so they are dominant. Hope this helps you on this subject pretty chart however the best of its kind to understand. Be happy, dont worry and breed with your heart each year. The gods in chicken heaven will be with you and so will we. Bob
When we started sticking my Rhode Island Red bantam males she said boy he sure has a even width of back. I pulled his wings back and it looked like a small 2x4 about three inches wide even from the wing joints to the oil gland. She said it looks like your quill color is getting darker. Boy I said you remember that from last year. Yes she said. Then she said I see that you got black spurs on your young males. I then asked her do you remember where that trait came from. She said from the large fowl that you crossed onto your bantams twenty years ago. I said correct. As we got one male after another every male had black nubs coming out of their legs then I reached in and grabbed the four year old cock bird. Boy she said he sure has black spurs and I told her he is the one that started this trait. I am going to mate the two females from Arkansas back onto him and then mate these daughters back to Black Spurs his son for two more years. She then said boy you sure fixed this trait on these Reds. Is this line breeding she said? Yes it is I told her.
Then we went to the White Leghorn Bantam females I had six washed up and ready to show. I grabbed one and she said is this a pullet? I said yes. She said last year you where hoping for pullets to start loping their combs after they started laying and she is loping. I said to myself this lady must have written down these notes boy what a memory. Yes I said. She and another pullet are loping and next breeding seasons I am going to use the two best pullets with loped combs to increase this trait as hens they should flop over just like the standard illustrates.
Next we went to the Gray Call pens need four ducks to stick she said. Boy looks at the neck on that female. You are getting the bull neck look after four years arent you. I said to myself boy this lady is on target with what I am doing. She then said their legs are getting shorter and the bills look shorter. What happen to the little drake with the crippled leg? I said I forgot about him one night when I was working and he stayed in the egg after he piped for about 24 hours and his leg was deformed because he could not get out. His legs where too short and his bill was too short he couldnt get out on his own. He is the best duck of the year. She said he sure did not have problems in the water tub swimming. No he just has trouble on the wire walking but I will breed him to a special female two years from now. Why do you have to wait? I just dont have the female yet that I want to breed to him, but she will show up I just know it.
She said I sure enjoy coming way down here to stick your birds I see improvement each year from your breeding. Maybe thats what its all about I said. There are a few of us who are called breeders and always learning we are not experts just students of the craft. Then she asked me what you are doing with this caliper. O I said I am measuring the width of the bills and the length of the bills and writing them down in a log book. You are breeding in one eights or one thirty seconds per year. Yes it is a slow process one eight of a inch per year. I dont really need that thing I can tell by my eye but I want to be correct in my judgment. I then told her look at these little drakes, look at the female color of their feathers as they lose this color and go into the male silver color. This little drake has the best female color I have ever seen on a hen or a drake. I think this is how you improve your female color by using drakes that had this nice female color at a young age of say three months. That is why I am going to have to wait for a female that has the bull neck type and great color and I will inbreed this female for three years to this young little drake. That will get me the female color I want.
So in my little story today with my Poultry inspector can you see how you sometimes cannot use a chart to do your breeding? You have to use your gut and your inner eye. If I went by charts before I breed up or breed down my bantams I would never had gotten to this level with the chart. Like NY Reds said he has been breeding in a closed family for thirty years. The breeder who he got his bantams from did the same for 30 to 50 years Ken Bowles the Father of the New Hampshire large fowl and bantams. So dont worry about getting no fertility I think the number one cause in this fault or bug a boo is loose feathering and poor egg production. If you have early development and fast feathering you will not have a issue with fertility or hatching and will not need new fresh blood. You got to skim the bad traits off the top of the pot each year and fix the good traits so they are dominant. Hope this helps you on this subject pretty chart however the best of its kind to understand. Be happy, dont worry and breed with your heart each year. The gods in chicken heaven will be with you and so will we. Bob
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