Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[heritagehabitatfarms]

cant help with the NH ??? but as far as putting yourself out there online and in forums u just have to go for it... be like a duck and let all the water (negativity) slide right off your back... i takes thick skin and perseverance to get your name out there if you want it... i personally like posts like yours because it lets others learn about the breed/s and potential problems and things to look out for... just my 2 cents lol...

I can promise they were never out-crossed here. I only have 1 Large Fowl rooster on my property and that is the NH. The only other rooster on my place is a Nankin and he was locked up in a breeding pen as were the NH's, not even sure if it would be possible for him to service the NH hens, though I am certain stranger things have happened. The dear man I bought the trio from would never in a million years sale something to someone that wasn't what it was suppose to be. So if that is what is being suggested please suggest again. I however hope I didn't leave an impression that these unusual markings were a fault of any breeder I had mentioned. That is absolutely not the case at all. I was asked if I knew where the parent stock had originated from and I was simply repeating what I had been told. I was looking for help not trying to point a finger of blame at anyone. This is exactly why I stay lurking and never speak out. I am either left feeling like I have stepped on someone's toes or with a sense of being inferior to those of you who have been at this chicken thing for a decade or longer. I think the knowledge on this thread, for the most part, is invaluable to those of us who are sincere in our desires to help to preserve a breed in need of saving and at the same time trying to do it correctly and to the standard. I wish I had a family poultry history to share and reflect on but sadly I do not. I do however intend to leave that legacy for my Grandchildren and if it means achieving this goal by trial and error I figure I have 30 good years left to get it close to right. It would however help if along they way a few knowledgeable folks would drop a hint or two my way. But if that doesn't happen I will get it figured out. I'm pretty stubborn and self driven and thank goodness I love to read. I appreciate those of you who took the time to offer me advice and help with my chicks. I am truly grateful. A big hug to the kindred spirit from the south (you know who you are) for always having an open ear and words of wisdom to give to me.
Nan

 

[3riverschick]

I can promise they were never out-crossed here. (snipped for brevity) I will get it figured out. I'm pretty stubborn and self driven and thank goodness I love to read. I appreciate those of you who took the time to offer me advice and help with my chicks. I am truly grateful. A big hug to the kindred spirit from the south (you know who you are) for always having an open ear and words of wisdom to give to me.
Nan

==============================
I have been thinking about your chicks. I ran into the wonderful genetically related color family of the Black Tailed Reds when I bred some Black-Tailed Buff Marans. Such an interesting family with only several genes separating the Black-Tailed Buff (lightest hue) from the exhibition RIR (darkest hue). Van Dort and Hancox Colour Genetics book was a real help to me there. On page 170
They discuss the color family. The Black-Tailed Red ( Red brown; Mahogany Black Tail) All are eWh based.
s+/s+ Ar+/Ar+ Di/Di Mh/Mh
s+/s+ Ar+/Ar+ Di/Di Mh/Mh Ml/Ml
s+/s+ Ar+/Ar+ Mh/Mh Db/Db
s+/s+ Ar+/Ar+ Mh/Mh Db/Db 'rb/rb'
1st has an all over orange tone, being a Black-Tailed Buff w/added Mh a Red Brown as in New Hampshire. Male has no black in hackle.
2nd is similar but w/added Ml which gives black stripe in lower hackle.
3rd is true red form, as in New Hampshire but darker, lacking Di.
4th is darkest form, the exhibition RIR. Gets depth of colour from interaction of Mh and rb on the eWh base. Undercolour ranges from light Mh to salmon colour.
All credit to Van Dort and Hancox "The Genetics of Chicken Colours-The Basics", available from http://www.chickencolours.com from Van Dort, etc.
Ar+=autosomal red ; Di=Dilute; Mh=Mahogany; Db=Dark Brown; rb= recessive black

I was thinking maybe you have some expression from the next darker set of hues in your birds? Just a thought, I don't know NH.
Hope this helps,
Karen in western PA, USA

 

[The Old Yolks]

Thank you so much Karen. I really appreciate your knowledge of color genetics. I am going to do some serious digging into this issue, which I foresee being a wonderful learning opportunity. Heritagehabitfarms, thank you for your words of encouragement. I will just keep digging and searching for the answers. I may get lucky enough to meet someone along the way that has encountered this same issue and we can exchange notes.
Nan

 

[kathyinmo]

I can promise they were never out-crossed here. I only have 1 Large Fowl rooster on my property and that is the NH. The only other rooster on my place is a Nankin and he was locked up in a breeding pen as were the NH's, not even sure if it would be possible for him to service the NH hens, though I am certain stranger things have happened. The dear man I bought the trio from would never in a million years sale something to someone that wasn't what it was suppose to be. So if that is what is being suggested please suggest again. I however hope I didn't leave an impression that these unusual markings were a fault of any breeder I had mentioned. That is absolutely not the case at all. I was asked if I knew where the parent stock had originated from and I was simply repeating what I had been told. I was looking for help not trying to point a finger of blame at anyone. This is exactly why I stay lurking and never speak out. I am either left feeling like I have stepped on someone's toes or with a sense of being inferior to those of you who have been at this chicken thing for a decade or longer. I think the knowledge on this thread, for the most part, is invaluable to those of us who are sincere in our desires to help to preserve a breed in need of saving and at the same time trying to do it correctly and to the standard. I wish I had a family poultry history to share and reflect on but sadly I do not. I do however intend to leave that legacy for my Grandchildren and if it means achieving this goal by trial and error I figure I have 30 good years left to get it close to right. It would however help if along they way a few knowledgeable folks would drop a hint or two my way. But if that doesn't happen I will get it figured out. I'm pretty stubborn and self driven and thank goodness I love to read. I appreciate those of you who took the time to offer me advice and help with my chicks. I am truly grateful. A big hug to the kindred spirit from the south (you know who you are) for always having an open ear and words of wisdom to give to me.
Nan

I did not intend to point a finger of blame. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings or said something insensitive. It was not intentional if I did.

I appreciate your post, and will certainly be looking for anything out of the ordinary with my own chicks.

 

[Fred's Hens]

I got a few Reds with that steak marking in my early batch this winter. Gosh I wish I had marked some web pages where I had read that such markings is fairly common, actually. I also remember reading about a wild gene. Don't remember anything about where I was reading that either.

I can tell you this much. Those marked that way at hatch have feathered out to be gorgeous birds at 8 weeks.
Hope that is encouraging. Don't know if you can see it well in the photo below, but anyhow.....

 

[1MrsMagoo]

At the beginning of the hottest time here, usually April/May, they get a little stressed at lower temps. But I gradually wait for higher and higher temps/humidity to lay out the frozen bottles in the runs and coops to help them acclimate to the really high temps of the dog days. That way they don't keel over on me when it's only 90-100 or if something were to happen and I was unable to get them ice bottles. By August, they were doing ok with waiting for it to be about 105 - 108 before I threw out the ice bottles for them to lay on.

When it is about 95-100 I put out kitty litter pans with water for them to wade in and if I change the wading water during the day, I throw the old water in the run. Then they wallow in the mud like little pigs to cool off.

We use 5 gal buckets with nipples in the bottom for waterers. They are wrapped in silver bubble-wrap insulation to keep the water cooler in summer and warmer in winter. The water holds a decent temp with frozen water bottles thrown in during the summer.

We have no shade here, so they have shade cloth curtains over the top and sides of their runs, in addition to insulation inside the walls of the coops.

There are people here that put AC units in their coops but then they have chickens die on them when it really isn't very hot, because their chickens have gotten accustomed to artificial weather. Bad especially when we have rolling blackouts because of too high energy usage in the state and those AC units don't work. It's sad but they don't understand that the more they coddle their chickens, they are really risking harming them in the long run.

It would be easier here if we had a dry heat. The trick really is to get them acclimated to the temps and then you don't have to worry as much at normal high temps.

I live in the SE part of Louisiana, so have the hot humid weather too. Luckily, we have a lot of live oaks on the property, which creates somewhat of a micro-climate. We built the coop under the canopy of a couple of the large older trees (keep all the dead wood trimmed out of the them). The way the coop is positioned, allows sun during most of the day during the winter, but shade for most of the day, till late afternoon, during the summer: Even then it is only the front of the building that gets most of the heat.

It is amazing during the heat of the day to walk out of the sun and into the shade how much cooler you feel immediately. The entire back of my coop is hardware cloth, as well as 1/2 of each side; so I have good air flow. Even on the hottest days you will see multiple birds out sun bathing. If they get too hot, they just go into the coop or lay in the shade under the trees in the back.

I have a couple large fans in the tops of the buildings and ran a mister around the fascia on the back of the building. The fans run on low at night and high during the day. The mister has a timer and will run for about 90 minutes each afternoon around 1:30 PM. That is all I do for them and haven't had any issues with any of them.

Here is the front with the goat house and paddock on the left and goose breeding house on the right.



Here is the back. The boards around the bottom keep the goats from damaging the wire.

 

[melroseladi]

I got a few Reds with that steak marking in my early batch this winter. Gosh I wish I had marked some web pages where I had read that such markings is fairly common, actually. I also remember reading about a wild gene. Don't remember anything about where I was reading that either.

I can tell you this much. Those marked that way at hatch have feathered out to be gorgeous birds at 8 weeks.
Hope that is encouraging. Don't know if you can see it well in the photo below, but anyhow.....

I believe in F A Hays' study he stated that chicks with the dark spotting/stripes grow to have darker coloring as adults. There was also research done by Byerly and Quinn back in the mid to late 30's regarding the dark pigmentation in RIR and NH. I believe the studies involved both commercial and standard lines. I wish I would have bookmarked all the info I had found on it, but I am keeping track of my own chicks with the dark spots/striping to see how they turn out.

Penny

 

[The Old Yolks]

Thank you everyone, all your information is so helpful. I apologize for my minor ranting, I was feeling very frustrated. I waited for a long time to start this project, practiced what seemed like forever on hatchery stock and tried to get the best birds I could find to start with only to have something uncommon pop up from the get go. I too am going to track the dark spot birds thoroughly. I would love to exchange notes with you Penny. Thank you again for all your advice and help. Have a wonderful blessed day everyone.
Nan

 

[Robert Blosl]

Good Afternoon Everyone, I rarely post here but I need some advice and education from you long time breeders. I have just hatched my 3rd set of New Hampshires and after seeing the pictures that cbnovick posted of her 2 day old chicks my concerns may indeed be valid and one that could potentially need serious addressing. Out of 22 chicks I have hatched 16 of them are exhibiting a dark smutty mark on their heads that sometimes continues down their necks onto their backs and is very prominent by day 3. These particular chicks grow faster and feather quicker then the others from the same hatch and also have heavy ticking in their new feathers. From what I have read or seen this doesn't appear to be within the "norm" for NH chicks. These are my very first Large Fowl New Hampshires and I want to do my best to keep them as close to the standard as possible. If any of you could give me solid truthful advice about this, I would greatly appreciate it. Other then this coloring issue and slow to develop feathers on some of them, they are big, healthy vigorous chicks. Thank you in advance for your help and advice.
Have a Blessed Day,
Nan





3-1-13 hatch very large dark spot


3-10-13 hatch no dark spot slow feathering #1


same hatch dark spot on head #2


hackle feathers of #2 chick ticking goes 1/2 way down back


3-2-13 hatch 3 of 4 have this dark spot

Out of 22 chicks I have hatched 16 of them are exhibiting a dark smutty mark on their heads that sometimes continues down their necks onto their backs and is very prominent by day 3. These particular chicks grow faster and feather quicker then the others from the same hatch and also have heavy ticking in their new feathers.

I dont know how many emails I got over the last 15 years asking about the baby chicks and will they have good color when they grow up or ask what sex are they at a week or two weeks old.

In my experience on Rhode Island Red large fowl and bantams I pay no attention to chick color. I like a dark down color on my red chicks and beaks as dark as they can be as if the parents had good surface color, bill color, eye color black in the right places the baby chicks will grow up like them on the hole.

You have a great gene pool of New Hampshire's. I am sure they are pure German line that Kathy got from Doug Ackers a few years ago. They may vary a little in chick down color from one place to another. Heck its poss able that climate changes from one region or another could mutate the color genes on the chicks and the adults a little bit but still they should all grow up to be nice looking birds like the parent stock you have. Enjoy the growth of your young birds. Study the growth of each chick and buy you some leg bands from a poultry supply house. You can buy bantam bands that are small enough to put on their legs till they get bigger legs. Take the number say five red bantam and right it on a five by eight card. Make notes of his or her development. Then when you change the leg band to a adult leg band size like again five red. keep making notes take pictures of them and when they grow up the experts on this site with New Hampshire's can help you pick the ones to breed from next year. Do you plan to show them? If not dont worry to much about breeding them to the standard. In my view you could just select your next years breeders for type only and get away with it for two to three years and then by then you will be a good enough and leaned what color factors you want to work on. You will also learn which male in his color and her color you want to breed with to try to get the ideal young bird for the future. With this line I don't think you can screw them up that much so take a deep breath and focus on just keeping them alive and free from varmints and injury. Some will mature faster than others. Will these be pullets or cockerels? Would you want to breed from a faster growing chicks than a slow feathering chick most of the time yes. One thing I have seen in the New Hampshire's that Matt 1616 has is they grow supper fast and so fast they can go in a molt on you about the time you want to show them. The mature faster than a Red or a Plymouth Rock at least this German strain that he and you have. Hope I helped you out a little. Don worry about chick feathers I never did and I turned out all right.

About breeding from pullets. If you are trying to improve a rare breed you only have so many years to do it. It is best to breed from hens or cock birds because you can see how they will mature and if they improved or got worse for type. If you have a female that is eighteen months old who still maintained her nice young pullet type and if you showed her she could win best of breed at a poultry show she will pass this on to her off spring. Same with males. I have seen pictures of older birds who lost their type for their breed and if you had ten males and ten females you would select the three best typed or colored or both items for next years breeders. I have breed from a white rock female till she died at seven years of age. She won champion large fowl at a show one time at four years of age. She looked like a pullet. I want my breeders to have this fountain of youth look. The best way to tell if a breeder has a good gene pool is to look at their two and three year old birds. If they still have that great look for type they got a power house for a strain. Most people breed from ckls and pullets. The old timers who I studied did this in the 1940d and 50s. Like today they had beginners wanting eggs or chicks from them as they where the top winners of the shows such as Madison Sq Garden. He would have 40 ckls and 200 pullets in breeding pens or the males where in male cages. He would sell the chicks and eggs from the pullet lines and make is big money. He then would let every one of the young birds go through their molt and then select the future breeders for himself for the next year. He may only keep 10% of them. He could sell the rest of them as breeders to his future customers at the shows.

He then had four super breeding pens for him self from say four years of top winners with killer type and color. Some where hens up to four to six years of age. The males may have only been two or three years old but it did not make much difference. The chicks when growing up looked like peas in a pod or just plane and simple uniform.

Hope I illustrated this for you who may be interested in pullet vs hen issue. I think in my breeding days hens produce a darn good chick, however last year a ckl with a chewed up comb from injuries and a slightly no-ck need Rhode Island Red pullet with killer type produced a cockerel that won at least three best of Rhode Island Reds classes and or Champion or Res Champion large fowl of the show and is on the cover of the Poultry Press this coming issue. So pullet ckl matings can produce good chicks to as he is one of the best I have seen of the Mohawk line in 20 years.

There you have it. My two cents for the day. I got to go and make some baby chick brooder boxes as the chicks are do to hatch in a few days. Got to get ready for my new venture planting a spring garden which I have never done and turn two or three custom made ink pens for mothers day orders. To much to do and not enough time to do it. That is retirement.

Want some inspiration for today to cheer you up. Look at this.

http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2012/09/one-world-trade-center-construction-progress/100367/

 

[gjensen]

Old Yolks, I would not worry about the chick markings yet. It would not hurt to have an idea who was who down the road. Might help you with learning your birds.

The right amount of black in the right places has a lot to do with this color variety. You are right to be watching it.

If the adults pictured a couple pages back are the parents, they are not pure German. They are a German/American cross. That is not a bad thing (could be said that it is a good thing), but helpful to know. You could expect some degree of variability going down the road. I hope this is not offensive, but helpful to know. And so that you know, most of the German pictures floating around now are crossed strains. Once you have had both, you can tell the difference.

I am looking at my Catalana's chick color and markings. There is some variability there. I am wondering if this will be an indicator for me in the years to come. I could not say yet. Their color/pattern has some similarities to our NHs.