Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[3riverschick]

Hi,
Think I will take a break from hatching after these Junior x May hatch in 3 days. That will give me 5 pens of different ages. I am disappointed not to have more from Junior x March. I think I will put one more setting of 7 from them in the 1st week of June and then be done for the year. That will give me 9 from March and 16 from May. I figure to keep 7 of them , 1 cockerel and 6 pullets (3 each from March and May). Happy to be hatching a lot of pullets this season.
Best,
Karen

 

[MagicChicken]

I've been going through my Java cockerels checking out backs. Several of my largest birds have what looks like a small hump in their backs (between the shoulder joints). When I put my hand over this area most of the "hump" turns out to be feathers, but on some of the birds there is a slight curve to the underlying backbone.

If you look at Figures 39 and 40 on page 21 of the 2010 SOP, there are illustrations of head and body characteristics which show the underlying chicken structure below the plumage. What I am feeling in my birds is similar to but not as extreme as Figure 40 - it's a slight curve to the back that doesn't necessarily show through the plumage.

Question 1: Is the back shape in Figure 40 an example of "within the range of normal but not desirable for breeding"? As opposed to "deformed roach back?"

Question 2: Javas are supposed to have backs that slope down toward the rear. If I select for straight backbones, will I lose that downward slope? In other words, can I maintain a properly sloped back in the flock if I cull the birds with back curves like Figure 40? Or does that curve actually create the downward slope?

Thanks for any insight you can give me.

Sarah

 

[3riverschick]

Vintage Java Fowl Lit
(articles and discussions of Java fowl)

Pacific Poultrycraft: Combining Western Poultry Journal -
California Poultry ...
The Java Fowl
V. C. AUGUSTINE, Pomona, Cal.
Oct. 1926
http://tinyurl.com/bw3vl3a
----------------------------------
The Art of Poultry Breeding: A Discussion of Out-crossing, In-breeding ...
By J. H. Davis 1896
http://tinyurl.com/co34bbe
------------------------------
Standard Perfection Poultry Book:
The Recognized Standard Work on Poultry ...
By C. C. Shoemaker 1902
http://tinyurl.com/d37sefv

 

[Robert Blosl]

http://www.standardbreedpoultry.com/

Got a email from Charlie he has improved is site so much. Found this a great page. Check it out and go back often. Great source for rare breeds.

In regards to your breeding issue. When it comes to type also don't over look your female many feel she has a lot of influence towards type. In Javas. Just try to breed as close to the Standard for type as you can. Take baby steps as it will take you Five years to improve them to the level that you may want to desire. I myself have mottle Javas which is a old strain from Dr. McGraw. I have no clue what I am going to see. I will just keep breeders that are in the zone of good Java Type as I have four birds that are very old and just need new fresh blood. I think if you and I where sitting on the feed bucket and looking at say a lot of ten males and ten females with leg bands on their legs we would just ask our selves which one looks the very best closest to Java type. We would write down his or her band numbers and then keep looking for the next one. If we end up with two males and two females we got a good working family of four birds. From these we could hatch forty chicks next year do it all over again. Look for improvement in length, size, weight what ever. Then in a five year period you will see improvement. Breeding is a slow and patient process and you need to set little goals over three years. That's how the master breeders over ten to fifteen years take a so so breed like Javas and have them on Champion row at major shows. One reason to go to Poultry Shows is to ask people who do you know that took a minority breed like Austrolpes, Capines ect and in ten years made major improvement. Then when you get a list go and talk to them and ask them how did you go about doing this. What worked for them will work for you. If you have a totally black chicken it will be so much easier to reach this goal than a multicolored bird.

 

[NeilsHamburgs]

     [COLOR=0000CD]Vintage Java Fowl Lit[/COLOR]
[COLOR=0000CD](articles and discussions of Java fowl)[/COLOR]

Pacific Poultrycraft: Combining Western Poultry Journal -

California Poultry ...
The Java Fowl

V. C. AUGUSTINE, Pomona, Cal.

Oct. 1926
http://tinyurl.com/bw3vl3a

----------------------------------
The Art of Poultry Breeding: A Discussion of Out-crossing, In-breeding ...
By J. H. Davis 1896
http://tinyurl.com/co34bbe

------------------------------
Standard Perfection Poultry Book:

The Recognized Standard Work on Poultry ...

 By C. C. Shoemaker  1902
http://tinyurl.com/d37sefv

The art of poultry breeding is a great book.

 

[Fred's Hens]

In regards to your breeding issue. When it comes to type also don't over look your female many feel she has a lot of influence towards type. In Javas. Just try to breed as close to the Standard for type as you can. Take baby steps as it will take you Five years to improve them to the level that you may want to desire.

Walter Hogan thought so.

http://archive.org/details/callhenscience00hogarich

 

[galanie]

In regards to your breeding issue. When it comes to type also don't over look your female many feel she has a lot of influence towards type. In Javas. Just try to breed as close to the Standard for type as you can. Take baby steps as it will take you Five years to improve them to the level that you may want to desire. 

Walter Hogan thought so.

http://archive.org/details/callhenscience00hogarich

I have been told by experts in genetics that the hen doesn't influence type any more than the rooster. But over and over, from the guys that have actually done breeding for years and years say yes, the hen influences type more than the rooster does. And I know from seeing the few mutts I've hatched as a result of two different breeds of chickens, the offspring does look more like the hen than the rooster. In each case, they had the hen's shape but the roosters size.

 

[MagicChicken]

My prior question was more of a back structure question than a breed question, so I'll ask it again without the breed reference:

If you look at Figures 39 and 40 on page 21 of the 2010 SOP, there are illustrations of head and body characteristics which show the underlying chicken structure below the plumage. What I am feeling in my birds is similar to but not as extreme as Figure 40 - it's a slight curve to the back that doesn't necessarily show through the plumage. Figure 40 illustrates "Head and Body Characteristics Showing a Lack of Vigor and Productiveness."

Question: Is the back shape in Figure 40 an example of "within the range of normal but not desirable for breeding"? As opposed to "deformed roach back?" In the illustration, the back curve does not affect the outline of the plumage. I am assuming a roach back would affect the outline of the plumage, and the illustration is in the "normal but not desirable" range of curvature. But I would like clarification on that issue.

I am trying to increase the size of these birds but do not want to propagate a potential problem back structure. Being a newbie I am trying to figure out where these larger birds fall on the spectrum of back curves, given that virtually all of the largest birds have curves similar to Figure 40. If it's a trait that's likely to get worse I'll go for straighter backs over size. If it's within the range of normal but not great and not likely to get worse, I may make a tradeoff to get the size up. Hence the question.

Thanks for any insight you can give me.

Sarah

 

[3riverschick]

The art of poultry breeding is a great book.

Hi Neil,
I agree. Just so much there. I learn something new every time I go back to it. Not a lot of info on the "art of breeding" on-line in the old books. Articles and a couple of books by Davis and Davies' , " The Art and Science of Breeding To Type", not on-line but been republished by Home Farm Books. I sure wish Dan Honour would finish his "Art of Breeding" DVD set. It's a great compliation of all kinds of articles and such on the art of breeding.

Title The Art of Breeding Poultry: Articles of Interest to the Breeder, Exhibitor & Fancier
Editor Danne J. Honour
Publisher H & H Poultry Items
Original from Cornell University
Digitized Aug 10, 2009
Length 46 pages
( this is the book, he is putting it on DVD).
Best,
Karen

 

[Jake Levi]

Statistically the male contributes on average 51% of the genes, and the female 49%. But, in addition, the female contributes the mitochondria DNA which has a big effect on type, growth, and maternal influences. I lurk, and havent posted in a long time but I appreciate the input here, a lot of good discussions.