Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[Fentress]

We're Rocks and Reds. We breed to preserve, but perhaps it is better said to keep alive not only the historic physical appearance of the birds, but the heritage of their temperament and agricultural purpose for which they were developed. Both the breeds were aimed at agriculture.

Yes, we eat them, yes we collect for table eggs. To ignore these aspects would be to ignore the original intention of the creators of these breeds. We believe the SOP captures and reflects the originators intentions.

That's what I am preserving! That is the spirit of this thing that means the most to me and the focus of my education. I have built a house on the last remnant of my great grandfather's farm that is still in the family. Someday I hope to have an American breed, dual purpose fowl of sufficient quality to carry on this legacy. The literature from the early 20 th century I think is valuable, reflective of a golden age of poultry keeping,when producers kept thier chickens on grass. My latest coop was designed with these principles in mind taken from Fresh Air Poultry Houses by Prince T. Woods. I'm rambling, but thanks for the post Fred.

 

[Matt1616]

I breed for show...with that being said in a lot of instances having birds that are productive is also what makes a good show bird. I think one thing that people get confused on with what everyone is calling "Heritage" lines is that most people start out with "Hatchery" birds that they got from a feed store and when they transition to "Heritage" breeds they expect the egg production to be the same and in most cases it is not. Hatchery lines have been bred for egg production because most backyard chicken people want lots of eggs but these breeds did not originally lay that many eggs. What I'm saying is I have people ask me all the time if my show chickens lay good and I tell them that the lay real well for a pure bred chicken. If you breed these lines for high egg production they will creep away from the correct look. I think some people's idea of productive has been distorted by the hatchery lines. Just because a pure bred Rhode Island Red doesn't lay 300 eggs a year does not mean that it is not productive...if it lays 200 eggs a year it is doing what it was meant to do.

 

[3riverschick]

=========================
The Poultry Item, Volume 16
Origin and History of Rhode Island Reds
By E. M. LONG , Osceola, Indiana
http://books.google.com/books?pg=RA...:"poultry"&id=lMBJAAAAYAAJ#v=onepage&q="white
%20laced%20red%20cornish%22%20carcass%20subject%3A%22poultry%22&f=false
================================
The Poultry Item, Volume 16
Jan. 1914 , Page 15
The Rhode Island Red
A Brief Discussion of This Great American Fowl in Which Its
Wonderful Qualities Are Brought to Mind and a Few Hints
Given as to Perpetuating Them. By Lester Tompkins .
http://tinyurl.com/nyaxgyt

 

[Fentress]

Well said and that would describe my primary intentions, also. That said, the more I breed, the more that I am gaining an interest in showing. I'm never going to win, but during this journey to restore the breeds, it would be nice to see if they are getting closer to Standard.

In regard to whether standard bred birds of today are still meeting the original intention of the creators of these breeds .... I would like to see that as true. On this thread and on this forum, the majority seem to feel that breeding (utility) breeds to the SOP does mean breeding them for better production. There is another forum for exhibition poultry fanciers, where the posters appear to be judges and long time breeders. On that forum, the idea that breeding to the SOP means breeding for utility is met with ridicule. Nearly all of those people, who look to be experts in the show world, absolutely scoff at the thought that an exhibition quality bird can also be of use for meat and/or eggs.

Joseph, you know what I'm talking about, because you were arguing the losing side of a discussion on this subject on that thread. Yet, you were championed for the same opinion on this forum. I know that Walt says that breeding to the standard is breeding for better production, in breeds created for that purpose. I do respect Walt more than any other person in the Fancy. But I can't understand how such a large group of his peers can have such an opposing viewpoint.

That is why I am not buying from a breeder anytime soon! Gotta make sure it is the right one for me. Some of you folks (breeders) might benefit by advertising the production values of your strain. Not just the eggs, but the carcass quality of your spring cockerels.

 

[fowlman01]

Well said and that would describe my primary intentions, also. That said, the more I breed, the more that I am gaining an interest in showing. I'm never going to win, but during this journey to restore the breeds, it would be nice to see if they are getting closer to Standard.

In regard to whether standard bred birds of today are still meeting the original intention of the creators of these breeds .... I would like to see that as true. On this thread and on this forum, the majority seem to feel that breeding (utility) breeds to the SOP does mean breeding them for better production. There is another forum for exhibition poultry fanciers, where the posters appear to be judges and long time breeders. On that forum, the idea that breeding to the SOP means breeding for utility is met with ridicule. Nearly all of those people, who look to be experts in the show world, absolutely scoff at the thought that an exhibition quality bird can also be of use for meat and/or eggs.

Joseph, you know what I'm talking about, because you were arguing the losing side of a discussion on this subject on that thread. Yet, you were championed for the same opinion on this forum. I know that Walt says that breeding to the standard is breeding for better production, in breeds created for that purpose. I do respect Walt more than any other person in the Fancy. But I can't understand how such a large group of his peers can have such an opposing viewpoint.

I don't agree with them although I probably know all or most of them. If you don't breed for the traits of the bird. (eggs, eggs and meat, meat etc) you will some day soon end up in a dead end situation. As BGMatt says.....you gotta have eggs to get chicks. The same goes for making them too big or too small...eventually you will end up with a cretin that cant breed. I have seen this with some exhibition lines.

With birds like Cornish you will never have tons of eggs. The body form is just not right for mass production of eggs....it's utility is meat. Call ducks and Cornish.....in my opinion....are the hardest birds to improve and the hardest birds to hatch......and they don't lay a ton of eggs.

edit: birds that lay tons of eggs don't usually last all that long. The average age of chickens here is about 8-10 years. I have a Call duck that is 16yo. and still lays a few eggs.

Walt

 

[Robert Blosl]

WOW what great statements. The description of a dual purpose chicken such as a Rock, Red Buckeyes, New Hampshire's or Orpingtons is Meat, Eggs and Beauty .

If you don't push egg production to a decent number you will loose breed type revert backwards . If you push for High Egg Production you will loose not only type but have females who's guts will blow out. Guernsey cows are a good example of a great dual purpose breed cow. You got all three good milk, meat and Beauty. She is not a high milking volume like a Holstein or a Jersey with high butter fat count. She is kind of in the middle of the road of both just a great breed of cow.

Look forward to your comments. Maybe this is why this tread is considered the best tread on the internet for its subject matter. Thank you.

 

[Pathfinders]

Some of you folks (breeders) might benefit by advertising the production values of your strain. Not just the eggs, but the carcass quality of your spring cockerels.

Hmm. Good point. I know that if I lose the production value in the carcass of my Buckeyes, I've lost a lot. Some lines do better, some not so much, in that regard. I know I try to keep a balance between show quality and production, while I breed to the Standard. It's not easy, but satisfying to do so. I don't believe in throwing one thing out the window just to improve another.

Thanks for your replies everyone, as has been said before, this is just an awesome thread!

 

[gjensen]

Well said and that would describe my primary intentions, also. That said, the more I breed, the more that I am gaining an interest in showing. I'm never going to win, but during this journey to restore the breeds, it would be nice to see if they are getting closer to Standard.

In regard to whether standard bred birds of today are still meeting the original intention of the creators of these breeds .... I would like to see that as true. On this thread and on this forum, the majority seem to feel that breeding (utility) breeds to the SOP does mean breeding them for better production. There is another forum for exhibition poultry fanciers, where the posters appear to be judges and long time breeders. On that forum, the idea that breeding to the SOP means breeding for utility is met with ridicule. Nearly all of those people, who look to be experts in the show world, absolutely scoff at the thought that an exhibition quality bird can also be of use for meat and/or eggs.

Joseph, you know what I'm talking about, because you were arguing the losing side of a discussion on this subject on that thread. Yet, you were championed for the same opinion on this forum. I know that Walt says that breeding to the standard is breeding for better production, in breeds created for that purpose. I do respect Walt more than any other person in the Fancy. But I can't understand how such a large group of his peers can have such an opposing viewpoint.

I would prefer that there is a balance between the two extremes. Personally, I would prefer a pretty good bird with character over a great bird with none. To me fertility, hatch ability, and livability is number one.

The first part of the Standard description that I read is, "Economic Qualities". I believe that it is important to be mindful of that as we move along. I do not think that it was written there for no reason.

In short, I agree with you. I think that way. Here, you have to earn your keep and have a real value. The rest is icing.

 

[Lacy Blues]

I started out breeding to the SOP for preservation and hoped to get a few individuals worthy of taking to a show. Its a long haul breeding Andalusians (that very difficult blue color) and getting really good ones. Getting a nice medium shade of slate blue that is even over the entire bird with nice dark lacing without being splotchy or mealy is quite a challenge. I really enjoy watching them and the challenge of finding a mating that is outstanding.

In my bantam project, I had one mating that produced sons that are all almost identical. It's going to be really really hard to cull down to two.

I've got one black male that has white undercolor (he was bred down from leghorn bantams on a small Andalusian) but his type is really nice. I intend to put him in a pen with another small Andalusian female that I've never gotten to hatch anything from as she goes broody as soon as she has laid a clutch of eggs. She is a really nice little splash and he will be going in with her this week as she appears to have had enough of her first batch of chicks and has started laying again. I need to catch her before she goes broody again.

I really enjoy watching my birds but eggs are important too because I sell them to people at the church I attend and that helps buy feed or other needed items. Excess cockerels and older hens and cocks go into the freezer so the meat is important as well.

I have only recently started raising birds for meat quality. Had Delawares last year and kept the best cock and two hens til I had several babies from them then he went in the freezer and I kept the hens for brown eggs. Delaware is quite delicious! I have some mutts in my yard bird pen (one EE, one marans cross, two marans, one Delaware and one white Wyandotte - who is a broody as well). I have one Delaware/Wyandotte cross male that I will be keeping and I also have secured some Chanteclers. I may try raising some pure chanteclers but I will also be crossing them into my mix flock as I want them to have rose combs so the winters will not be such a problem. My barn is not drafty, nor is it wet, but I have quite a few issues with frost bite on my single comb birds and I want to breed that out everywhere that I can.

 

[thedragonlady]

I don't agree with them although I probably know all or most of them. If you don't breed for the traits of the bird. (eggs, eggs and meat, meat etc) you will some day soon end up in a dead end situation. As BGMatt says.....you gotta have eggs to get chicks. The same goes for making them too big or too small...eventually you will end up with a cretin that cant breed. I have seen this with some exhibition lines.

With birds like Cornish you will never have tons of eggs. The body form is just not right for mass production of eggs....it's utility is meat. Call ducks and Cornish.....in my opinion....are the hardest birds to improve and the hardest birds to hatch......and they don't lay a ton of eggs.

edit: birds that lay tons of eggs don't usually last all that long. The average age of chickens here is about 8-10 years. I have a Call duck that is 16yo. and still lays a few eggs.

Walt

I know them too Walt. The breeders who breed for show fads never last long. They either experience a fad change,or run into breeding problems.

When I got my LF Buff Orps I had no intention of showing again. I had been there, done that, for a long time, rather successfully. I wanted beautiful yard candy that filled my eye, and laid a good supply of eggs.Which to choose ? American, or English bred birds ? I weighed the pros and cons of each , and decided that a cross would suit me the best.

Those deep keeled British birds have a lot of meat, and generally good color. However they also have fluff that trails on the ground , so much so that they are hard to keep clean, even on sand. They are not heavy layers either.Probably an excess of Cochin blood there, and more of a meat type bird.

The US bred Orps looked too narrow and shallow to me, needing better chests and deeper keels. Their color needed work too. Too many mealy, two toned Buffs. They are generally decent to good layers. More of a layer type needing more meat.

I was very lucky to find two lines that nicked well . The trick now is to keep the balance in the two lines consistent.This should occupy my mind for quite a few years, while I get the enjoyment of watching them every day , and gathering many more eggs than we can use. Most of the girls, even the crosses, lay 250-300 eggs in a year, except for my original British bred hen , who lays about 150.

Yes, I'll show a few . It's a hassle showing LF, compared to bantams. I really want just to see what else is out there, and to keep coop blindness at bay. It's the planning, and everyday work with the birds that I really enjoy. Opening an incubator full of fat chicks is better than Christmas, even though I know full well that the work is just beginning.