Saladin.....Exactly!!!!
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Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread
- Thread starter Robert Blosl
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Yep Junior that's why I have Rocks now I too tried to get some good standard Cornish and couldn't jump through enough hoops either was lucky on my Delawares and Silver Penciled Rocks working on improving my New Hampshires next thanks to Kathy. I hope to always try and get newbies off to a fair start with hatching eggs or chicks my cull pullets lay almost as good as hatchery stock and there is always a market for those and I can sell the others for eating and I even eat them myself....
Yep Junior that's why I have Rocks now I too tried to get some good standard Cornish and couldn't jump through enough hoops either was lucky on my Delawares and Silver Penciled Rocks working on improving my New Hampshires next thanks to Kathy. I hope to always try and get newbies off to a fair start with hatching eggs or chicks my cull pullets lay almost as good as hatchery stock and there is always a market for those and I can sell the others for eating and I even eat them myself....
Quote:
Saladin, I hope that I wasn't being rude, because I sure don't mean to be. I know I ask more questions than a three year old, but I know of no other way to learn. And I hope all of you understand that I only ask questions of those whom I respect and trust to give me a correct answer. Do I always want to hear the truth?... no, of course not, I'm human, but I (and others like me just starting out) NEED to hear the truth. We NEED those of you with the knowledge, experiance and dedication to teach us and help us.
I seldom respond to your posts because to be frank, I'm a bit intimadated by those of you who are the experts. I've been slapped down a few times for asking a question and after a bit, even a thick skinned guy like me gets a little gun shy.
So again, if I have offended anyone or said anything out of line, I apoligize.
I'll go back to lurking and learning.
Saladin, I hope that I wasn't being rude, because I sure don't mean to be. I know I ask more questions than a three year old, but I know of no other way to learn. And I hope all of you understand that I only ask questions of those whom I respect and trust to give me a correct answer. Do I always want to hear the truth?... no, of course not, I'm human, but I (and others like me just starting out) NEED to hear the truth. We NEED those of you with the knowledge, experiance and dedication to teach us and help us.
I seldom respond to your posts because to be frank, I'm a bit intimadated by those of you who are the experts. I've been slapped down a few times for asking a question and after a bit, even a thick skinned guy like me gets a little gun shy.
So again, if I have offended anyone or said anything out of line, I apoligize.
I'll go back to lurking and learning.
- May 13, 2008
- 10,684
- 193
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Although I don't consider the network I spoke of previously as a "CLUB" by any means, I too have had my reservations when dealing with the good Ole boy's who look at you with a raised brow, because you come off wrong or give the wrong impression. I feel there is a happy median we can achieve, I was held outside of these circles for so long that it infuriated me, and once I finally got the stock I wanted to work with I promised myself I would not become one of them.
I think when a newcomer is inquiring it is important to see that they have taken the time and concentrated effort to self educate themself so they can also understand and ask all the right questions. This goes a very long way in gaining someones trust and gaging their dedication. I have helped and will always continue to help those I feel really really want this and for all the right reasons, after all I had to break into that circle myself and it wasn't pretty LOL, but I did it by letting them know your not a hack and do have a clue and maintain communication with them to see how things are going.
I do enjoy the interaction of ideas on this thread, thanks for inviting me.
AL
I think when a newcomer is inquiring it is important to see that they have taken the time and concentrated effort to self educate themself so they can also understand and ask all the right questions. This goes a very long way in gaining someones trust and gaging their dedication. I have helped and will always continue to help those I feel really really want this and for all the right reasons, after all I had to break into that circle myself and it wasn't pretty LOL, but I did it by letting them know your not a hack and do have a clue and maintain communication with them to see how things are going.
I do enjoy the interaction of ideas on this thread, thanks for inviting me.
AL
Wow!!
SO much community building going on in such a short period of time
. So Stage 1: The honeymoon....everyone loves heritage fowl
. Stage 2: The return of the ego......does everyone love them the way I think they should
? Stage 3: (If this thread gets there) Is the acceptance of all where they're at.
Don't worry so much about the "Who's a real breeder" kind of question That kind of question always leaves someone staring down the open end of a barrel. All of a sudden people are too dogmatic; breeders are priests; the SOP is the new cathechism; and excommunication awaits all of us culls. Besides, it begins to leave reality behind.
The joy that binds us is the enjoyment of fowl. If we hold first to that, there's room for all.
1. So this idea about sharing/not sharing your best birds. Dan Honour just stopped in with a bit of real insight. I believe, too, that it was Bob who mentioned not knowing anyone who could fill an order for 25 Partridge Rock chicks. We'll hatch and sell White Dorking chicks for three to four months this year. At this point we'll spare 25 chicks a week. So that's really only 12 to 16 customers a year. I hope each year that one will find them irresistible and be willing to make them part of their daily routine for the next few decades. I think that oftentimes breeders hope that their stock, which is of course an expression of love as seen through deep knowledge and daily dedication and discipline, will go on and bring joy to others. That it should be discarded or thrown into a hodge-podge assortment of sundry barnyard fowls feels a bit cheapened.
As far as your BEST fowl are concerned, I absolutely agree with Dan and Bob. Your BEST fowl belong on your property. Your best fowl are next year's breeders, and there's not a smile in the world that can melt them from your hands. This is a good thing, because it safeguards the birds.
2. It's so exciting that so many people are reading this thread and excited about heritage breeds. So, the next question is what's your breed? If you can, choose one, just one, and choose one variety, just one. You'll learn so much more, so much faster. You'll be able to do everything more indepth. Once you decide to find your one, you get into the awesome nitty-gritty. Someone mentioned a way back having lots of land but not a lot of money. Well, one of the truly old school foraging breeds could do the trick: La Fleche, Hamburgs, Lakenvelder, Buttercups, Campines, Anconas, Andalusians, Dorkings, Leghorns. If you think about it, chick starter wasn't even invented until 1932. These scrappers preceed electricity let alone formulated feeds. For people with smaller facilities, Bob mentioned bantams. Bantams are great, and some can be quite productive. They can be plucked and then spatch-cocked for meat. It's an awesome option. Another writer mentioned raising Faverolles because they can be culled right from the hatcher. This is another option for space or funds=sensitive raisers. Certain breeds show you a lot of what they got right from the start, and they have it or they don't. Dorkings and their 5th toes are plainly visible right from the start; off color in self colored birds is somtimes clear. a well developed muff can be seen in the chicks, leg color may be an option. There are so many breeds on the list of possibilities. I'm reading alot about Buckeyes and Delawares, but that's the very tip-tip of the iceberg.
When you're thinking about your breed of choice, you have to decide how much fight you have. Luckily, I'm not much into showing because with White Dorkings I'm still a goodly number of seasons out. Can you say comb...
oi! Fifth toe spread and position
!! Thank God for meat quality
. If you really want to work with the rarest of the rare, they're in a pitiful state. You'll have to be willing to be extrememely patient and to cull like a crazy. If I had to put a bet on the two rarest heritage breeds, I'd say Redcaps and Crevecoeurs. The one who can save those is the poultry hero of the 21st century. On the other hand, if you want to start right off cookin' on the front burner, those Reese BRs and the NH's were mighty fine. Also, there is a gentleman by the name of Paul in Florida who, as seen per his website, has some crazy good looking Wyandottes. Don Nelson in RI has fantastic SC RIR. Mr. Carlow of RI has wonderful RC RIR. Is anyone brave enough to tackle Houdans?
This might at first seem overwhelming, but it's the fun stuff--figuring all this out. Then when you approach a breeder you know you're really into their breed and why. They'll really appreciate your enthusiasm, and then watch out. Breeders might seem all closed up at first, but if they truly sense that you have an honest interest in their breed of choice, well, you might be cornered for an hour or two everytime you see him/her. It's great. All of the Dorking history and Dorking culture I have learned from talking to older Dorking breeders is priceless. Also, and this goes back to the prior point, a breeder is not going to sell you his/her best birds--at all. Don't expect it. And on the other side of things, you always fill your own quota before you start selling chicks, or you'll end the season short. Think about it, you already drank the kool-aid. You're committed to your breed, they're best bet is for you to insure the numerical and quality safety at home first.
I want to start reading about everyone's breed of choice. Someone wrote recently, "Maybe I need to get rid of my EEggers and mixed breeds." Yeah!!! For better or for worse, the blue egg craze really hits our culture after the cut off date for heritage status. Nevertheless, if you're going to raise a blue-egged chicken, which are of course so pretty, why not a purebred Ameraucana or Araucana? Recently someone mentioned having Barred Hollands--WOW! That would be cool to see a strong flock of Barred Hollands.
3. On google books there is a book called A Little Jouney Through Anconas, in it there is a fairly strong discussion, with good diagrams, of line breeding. Saladin mentioned mentioned a system called rolling breeding, where you keep about 20 birds in two spaces, every year you reduce your stock by 50% (allocating all of your hens into one of the coops), filling the other space with your best new pullets. The last year's cock is put on this years pullets, and this year's cockerel is put on the mature hens. This method is especially handy if you are working with a community of people from whom you can import new blood on occasion, or perhaps, if your breed of choice has a breed club where you can easily locate a new cockerel every so many years. This system keeps your need for infrastructure low and affordable. Besides, as Dan Honour (I believe) mentioned you can work with others in your community and share the burden. We do that with both with our creme d'argent rabbits here. There are around 8 or 9 households in a little community exchanging stock, etc... It's fun.
4. Treatments, well if we can't solve the problem with applecider vinegar or diatomaceous earth, then it's Arrivederci Roma. The old adage said the poultry breeders first aid kit held lice poder and a hatchet. I agree. This thread is about becoming breeders, you literally want to cull sickness out of your flock. If I see a bird showing signs of illness, which at this point is very rare, I just reach down and pop. Don't bleed the bird. Lice, mites, and the occasional wet weather parasite, barring that, kaput. If you breed from birds that get sick, you'll breed birds that get sick. Moreover, you're breeding birds that are perfectly suited to the microclimate of your property. This goes back to the landrace question, as someone pointed out. I say this, though, about birds that are always and only on our property. I've seen some pretty crazy stuff at shows that may have nothing to do with the reality of your poultry flock. You might have to quarantine and be lenient.
Let's keep talking about chickens. Who, by the by, is going to champion the Silver-penciled hamburg?
PS: This is way too long to spell check
. So Stage 1: The honeymoon....everyone loves heritage fowl
Don't worry so much about the "Who's a real breeder" kind of question That kind of question always leaves someone staring down the open end of a barrel. All of a sudden people are too dogmatic; breeders are priests; the SOP is the new cathechism; and excommunication awaits all of us culls. Besides, it begins to leave reality behind.
The joy that binds us is the enjoyment of fowl. If we hold first to that, there's room for all.
1. So this idea about sharing/not sharing your best birds. Dan Honour just stopped in with a bit of real insight. I believe, too, that it was Bob who mentioned not knowing anyone who could fill an order for 25 Partridge Rock chicks. We'll hatch and sell White Dorking chicks for three to four months this year. At this point we'll spare 25 chicks a week. So that's really only 12 to 16 customers a year. I hope each year that one will find them irresistible and be willing to make them part of their daily routine for the next few decades. I think that oftentimes breeders hope that their stock, which is of course an expression of love as seen through deep knowledge and daily dedication and discipline, will go on and bring joy to others. That it should be discarded or thrown into a hodge-podge assortment of sundry barnyard fowls feels a bit cheapened.
As far as your BEST fowl are concerned, I absolutely agree with Dan and Bob. Your BEST fowl belong on your property. Your best fowl are next year's breeders, and there's not a smile in the world that can melt them from your hands. This is a good thing, because it safeguards the birds.
2. It's so exciting that so many people are reading this thread and excited about heritage breeds. So, the next question is what's your breed? If you can, choose one, just one, and choose one variety, just one. You'll learn so much more, so much faster. You'll be able to do everything more indepth. Once you decide to find your one, you get into the awesome nitty-gritty. Someone mentioned a way back having lots of land but not a lot of money. Well, one of the truly old school foraging breeds could do the trick: La Fleche, Hamburgs, Lakenvelder, Buttercups, Campines, Anconas, Andalusians, Dorkings, Leghorns. If you think about it, chick starter wasn't even invented until 1932. These scrappers preceed electricity let alone formulated feeds. For people with smaller facilities, Bob mentioned bantams. Bantams are great, and some can be quite productive. They can be plucked and then spatch-cocked for meat. It's an awesome option. Another writer mentioned raising Faverolles because they can be culled right from the hatcher. This is another option for space or funds=sensitive raisers. Certain breeds show you a lot of what they got right from the start, and they have it or they don't. Dorkings and their 5th toes are plainly visible right from the start; off color in self colored birds is somtimes clear. a well developed muff can be seen in the chicks, leg color may be an option. There are so many breeds on the list of possibilities. I'm reading alot about Buckeyes and Delawares, but that's the very tip-tip of the iceberg.
When you're thinking about your breed of choice, you have to decide how much fight you have. Luckily, I'm not much into showing because with White Dorkings I'm still a goodly number of seasons out. Can you say comb...
oi! Fifth toe spread and position
This might at first seem overwhelming, but it's the fun stuff--figuring all this out. Then when you approach a breeder you know you're really into their breed and why. They'll really appreciate your enthusiasm, and then watch out. Breeders might seem all closed up at first, but if they truly sense that you have an honest interest in their breed of choice, well, you might be cornered for an hour or two everytime you see him/her. It's great. All of the Dorking history and Dorking culture I have learned from talking to older Dorking breeders is priceless. Also, and this goes back to the prior point, a breeder is not going to sell you his/her best birds--at all. Don't expect it. And on the other side of things, you always fill your own quota before you start selling chicks, or you'll end the season short. Think about it, you already drank the kool-aid. You're committed to your breed, they're best bet is for you to insure the numerical and quality safety at home first.
I want to start reading about everyone's breed of choice. Someone wrote recently, "Maybe I need to get rid of my EEggers and mixed breeds." Yeah!!! For better or for worse, the blue egg craze really hits our culture after the cut off date for heritage status. Nevertheless, if you're going to raise a blue-egged chicken, which are of course so pretty, why not a purebred Ameraucana or Araucana? Recently someone mentioned having Barred Hollands--WOW! That would be cool to see a strong flock of Barred Hollands.
3. On google books there is a book called A Little Jouney Through Anconas, in it there is a fairly strong discussion, with good diagrams, of line breeding. Saladin mentioned mentioned a system called rolling breeding, where you keep about 20 birds in two spaces, every year you reduce your stock by 50% (allocating all of your hens into one of the coops), filling the other space with your best new pullets. The last year's cock is put on this years pullets, and this year's cockerel is put on the mature hens. This method is especially handy if you are working with a community of people from whom you can import new blood on occasion, or perhaps, if your breed of choice has a breed club where you can easily locate a new cockerel every so many years. This system keeps your need for infrastructure low and affordable. Besides, as Dan Honour (I believe) mentioned you can work with others in your community and share the burden. We do that with both with our creme d'argent rabbits here. There are around 8 or 9 households in a little community exchanging stock, etc... It's fun.
4. Treatments, well if we can't solve the problem with applecider vinegar or diatomaceous earth, then it's Arrivederci Roma. The old adage said the poultry breeders first aid kit held lice poder and a hatchet. I agree. This thread is about becoming breeders, you literally want to cull sickness out of your flock. If I see a bird showing signs of illness, which at this point is very rare, I just reach down and pop. Don't bleed the bird. Lice, mites, and the occasional wet weather parasite, barring that, kaput. If you breed from birds that get sick, you'll breed birds that get sick. Moreover, you're breeding birds that are perfectly suited to the microclimate of your property. This goes back to the landrace question, as someone pointed out. I say this, though, about birds that are always and only on our property. I've seen some pretty crazy stuff at shows that may have nothing to do with the reality of your poultry flock. You might have to quarantine and be lenient.
Let's keep talking about chickens. Who, by the by, is going to champion the Silver-penciled hamburg?
PS: This is way too long to spell check
Last edited:
Thank you Al, I think I understand better now!
- May 13, 2008
- 10,684
- 193
- 321
Quote:
Saladin, I hope that I wasn't being rude, because I sure don't mean to be. I know I ask more questions than a three year old, but I know of no other way to learn. And I hope all of you understand that I only ask questions of those whom I respect and trust to give me a correct answer. Do I always want to hear the truth?... no, of course not, I'm human, but I (and others like me just starting out) NEED to hear the truth. We NEED those of you with the knowledge, experiance and dedication to teach us and help us.
I seldom respond to your posts because to be frank, I'm a bit intimadated by those of you who are the experts. I've been slapped down a few times for asking a question and after a bit, even a thick skinned guy like me gets a little gun shy.
So again, if I have offended anyone or said anything out of line, I apoligize.
I'll go back to lurking and learning.
Please don't go back to just reading, I feel you have a good deal of insight to offer, I think it's important to what we are discussing for those very same reasons.
AL
Saladin, I hope that I wasn't being rude, because I sure don't mean to be. I know I ask more questions than a three year old, but I know of no other way to learn. And I hope all of you understand that I only ask questions of those whom I respect and trust to give me a correct answer. Do I always want to hear the truth?... no, of course not, I'm human, but I (and others like me just starting out) NEED to hear the truth. We NEED those of you with the knowledge, experiance and dedication to teach us and help us.
I seldom respond to your posts because to be frank, I'm a bit intimadated by those of you who are the experts. I've been slapped down a few times for asking a question and after a bit, even a thick skinned guy like me gets a little gun shy.
So again, if I have offended anyone or said anything out of line, I apoligize.
I'll go back to lurking and learning.
Please don't go back to just reading, I feel you have a good deal of insight to offer, I think it's important to what we are discussing for those very same reasons.
AL
Isn't the Club called the APA or ABA? I am a newcomer. Only shown in 6 shows last year. I know when you pay $3 to show a bird, you can feel comfortable asking the judge what he thinks? IF you have 2 or 3 nice cockerels, and you aren't sure who to use and who to show. Take them to a show and ask a judge. Even better, find out who else in the breed you prefer is also showing. Many times the fellows you compete against will give you as good an opinion as a judge.
- May 13, 2008
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Very well said and thought out, thanks for sharing it, and I agree wholeheartedly.
AL
Very well said and thought out, thanks for sharing it, and I agree wholeheartedly.
AL
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