Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

Oh, I forgot this thread was pretty much completely dialed in on the ALBC definition.

 

[kathyinmo]

Oh, I forgot this thread was pretty much completely dialed in on the ALBC definition.

Frankly, I don't care if they are labeled Heritage or Modern or anything else. I just want a Delaware that looks like what the SOP describes as a Delaware.

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

Exactly!

 

[HallFamilyFarm]

At present we only have the ALBC definition for heritage and its was developed by APA judges. The APA has a committee working on a definition.

There is another definition by the SPPA.

 

[Outlier]

I guess after reading the information on the ALBC and SPPA websites, I came to the conclusion that both organizations were focusing on genetic preservation rather than just preservation of phenotypes and characteristics. In other words, preserving the original bloodlines. This message really comes through when looking at the ALBC's work with cattle (my other love). If the original bloodlines didn't matter, Delawares wouldn't even be on the ALBC conservation list because they could easily be recreated with the original breeds. This is why it always concerns me when people outcross to other breeds to "widen the genetic base" or attempt to take shortcuts in improving a breed. Unless there is only one inbred flock of a breed or color variant within a breed, you should be able to cross within a breed to increase/maintain vigor. This is harder to do in many cases depending on the availability of stock, especially good quality stock, but if genetic preservation is important to someone, then preserving the original bloodlines should be the priority not just the type. Yellow House Farm has done a great job, based the pictures I've seen, on improving the white Dorking without outcrossing to other breeds and preserving the original bloodlines (from what I understand). Some will say that it's impossible, or that it will take too long with some breeds. However, I'm very patient, and It is my understanding that all these characteristics had to come from simple selection at some point. I just think that in order to preserve a breed, genetic preservation of original bloodlines is paramount. The reason for genetic preservation has to do with the long term viability of poultry. We never know which way consumer trends will move, and considering the narrow genetic lines of commercial flocks, these original bloodlines and their inherent genetic variability will be the way in which the industry can change. This is why the ALBC and SPPA are so concerned with the extinction of various breeds; it narrows the gene pool. If we keep outcrossing to Plymouth Rocks, for example, because they are what is convenient, all we will end up with are a bunch of breeds that may appear different but are too closely related to be of any significant value genetically.

Just as a side point, in the rare case there is a very inbred breed in need of an outcross (think Lamona if it still exists), then a recreated bloodline would be ideal as an outcross, in my opinion, as it would be the closest you could get to crossing within a breed.

Sorry for the ramble; this is just what I have gathered over time that has become my philosophy. I just thought I'd share and maybe discuss. You can do what you want with your poultry; it's a free country.

 

[capayvalleychick]

I came to the conclusion that both organizations were focusing on genetic preservation rather than just preservation of phenotypes and characteristics. In other words, preserving the original bloodlines.

I'm glad that you said this, because it's something that I've been considering lately.

Conservation of the old and original lines of livestock & poultry is very important to me. I raise the original type of black horned Dexter cattle in a market where everyone wants the newer polled & red. I feel those old strains are important- they are what made the breed what it is.
Because I raise registered heritage livestock, the practice of crossbreeding/outcrossing poultry breeds bothers me. I know it's common practice, just for me, personally, it doesn't seem right.
JMO

My biggest pet peeve is when newbies want to "help" improve the Dorking by crossing in other breeds- or that so many want to create unique colors by crossing varieties. I realize many other colors existed but lets get the recognized varieties back to what they should be before creating fancy variations.

With a foundation poultry breed, like the Dorking, I don't think breeders should ever outcross to another breed. Using another variety within the breed can be done by the pros who know what they are doing and have a solid long range plan, but I don't agree with using another breed for whatever reason.

With a composite breed, like the Delaware, it is a different case. I can still see the value in preservation of the older, original strains- if they exist. Breeders who have these lines can identify them as such and people who want to work with the old lines can do so. The recreated composite breeds can also be a resource for those that prefer them. I do think that breeders need to be honest about the breeding origins of their birds. I don't think there is a clear cut answer to whether the recreated lines are still heritage, since the definition of heritage varies.

I'm really struggling, in my own mind, about this issue. I've always wanted to preserve the old strains. I never even considered owning a recreated breed.... until I got a look at Kathy's Delawares. Now, I'm completely torn. I have some young Delawares from an old strain. I was planning to concentrate on this line, for preservation. They have defects, they're not as close to type as I would like. Kathy's recreated Dels are much bigger and closer to the standard. Her birds are making me question my own priorities.

So, I'm glad that this topic came up.

Kim

 

[Robert Blosl]

You all have some good thoughts on these old and rare breeds. I hate to tell you the gene pool on a lot of breeds you may talk about are all watered down. Many hatcheries have them and sell them but if you got 25 from four different sources you are going to cull down to say twenty young birds and when you get done you are going to have a line that if scored on the old method of judging the point system you may get 85 on most of them and one maybe a 90. If you would take every trick in the book and line breeding chart it would take you 20 years and 100 chicks per year to get them up to say 94 points.

Some breeds out their are just gone. Some are washed up many are hanging at the 90 to 92 mark and have a chance. You have to look into the future and ask yourself how much time do I have to invest into this breed. Can I get partners and two or three of us work on a project and share birds. Can we import this same breed from Europe legally and save us some time if they are available?

In regards to a organization working to help improve a breed like the APA there are no programs. Only dedicated breeders will bring back these birds to what they where in the glory days. In many cases beginners want to get involved to save a breed and lack skills in breeding and hatching and rearing and wont make it to the three year mark. Many breeds are the most difficult to breed for color even for a seasoned veteran of 20 years let alone a rookie.

We have a old saying in the Rhode Island Red gang. Here Today Gone tomorrow. As popular as this endangered breed is most people are out of Reds in three years for they disobey the rules of breeding and color.

My hope by starting this thread is pick ten breeds of rare chickens study them and put them in order of importance of value worth fooling with. Then if you find three breeds worth working with try to find the best line of that breed you can locate and hope you can hook up with that breeder for guidance.

http://www.ezfshn.com/Tides/USA/Alabama


Having a breed and hatching them each year ,but not improving them wont help the breed.

Just for the fun of it, what breeds have you been thinking about to help and rebuild?????????????????????

Just my thoughts. Bob

 

[CharlieVoda]

My hope by starting this thread is pick ten breeds of rare chickens study them and put them in order of importance of value worth fooling with. Then if you find three breeds worth working with try to find the best line of that breed you can locate and hope you can hook up with that breeder for guidance.

Having a breed and hatching them each year ,but not improving them wont help the breed.

Just for the fun of it, what breeds have you been thinking about to help and rebuild?????????????????????

Just my thoughts. Bob

Large fowl Rose comb Rhode Island Reds, Dark Brahma and Aylesbury Ducks.

Bob I e mailed you.

Good luck with the birds
Charlie

 

[3riverschick]

Originally Posted by Robert Blosl

My hope by starting this thread is pick ten breeds of rare chickens study them and put them in order of importance of value worth fooling with. Then if you find three breeds worth working with try to find the best line of that breed you can locate and hope you can hook up with that breeder for guidance.

Having a breed and hatching them each year ,but not improving them wont help the breed.

Just for the fun of it, what breeds have you been thinking about to help and rebuild?????????????????????

Just my thoughts. Bob
------------------------------------------
Hi Bob,
I'm a real historical purist. First in collies, now in Poultry. I wanted to raise up the Golden Salmon Marans (wildtype) here in the US but that didn't happen. So after searching around for another breed, I've decided I want to breed Sussex the English way. Have settled on Light Sussex, forgoing any Aussie influence. I know Greenfire didn't mean to cause problems in the variety but things are kinda messy right now with the breed type differences between US and Aussie lines. Esp. with folk thinking "bigger is better" and not understanding the difference between close-feathered and soft-feathered fowl. I think Light Sussex in the US could really profit from a good dose of Sussex bred the historic English way.
Best,
Karen in western PA, USA

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

I get to start with TEN breeds?! That I can do, LOL.

Rhode Island Red
Barred Rock
Euskal Oilia (Basque)
Houdan
Delaware
Brabanter
Orloff

Not all fit the ALBC definition of heritage (but then again, not all the breeds on their own list fits that definition,) but they are all old, with rich and fascinating histories and standards to adhere to—if not APA standards.

My goal is to pick one to focus on for the rest of my life. That may happen by a process of elimination over the next few years, however. As it stands, I don't see the Orloff or the Brabanter being strong front-runners, but I can't write them off yet. The Houdan would be a LOT of work, I worry that I may not be up to the task. From what I know at this point, there are good lines of RIR, BR and Basque Hens out there that need to be maintained and cherished. The Delaware is intimidating because they seem like quite a challenge, even to maintain, because of their complex patterning. The Euskal Oilia aren't the total package because they cannot be shown.

So, lots to consider, I suppose. But choice is a wonderful thing.